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View Diary: Prominent Americans urge Ecuador to accept Julian Assange's asylum request (41 comments)

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  •  i'm of divided mind here. (6+ / 0-)

    Most of the time I agree with what you have to say about most things.

    But yeah it sure is rape when you invite someone into your bed and then say this far and no further and he doesn't take no for an answer.   The right of a person to consent and to revoke consent supersedes the right of another person to use the former's body to get their rocks off.  

    Let's take the extreme case of a woman who likes to play cruel sexual tricks on men.  She invites a guy into her bed and goes through all the foreplay, and then says Stop, and prepares to enjoy his discomfort at having to deal with the results.  The answer is: too bad for him, his choices are to tell his naughty bits to cool it, or excuse himself to go to the bathroom and choose which hand gets the job.  If he keeps at it with her and forces the situation, it's rape.  

    Even if she outright told him that she loves putting guys in that position because it gives her a mean thrill.  If I'm not mistaken, the name for that is a "cock tease."  But the option he does not have, is to force the situation, or the name for that is rape.

    That said, if Swedish authorities questioned him and determined that he should not be charged with some kind of sexual assault, then whether or not we think it's a just outcome, that result governs his situation vis-a-vis Sweden.  

    --

    Agreed, Assange is a narcissist.  He forfeited any moral legitimacy when he wiped the BofA files over a snit with one of his subordinates.  About that there should be no controversy.  But to my mind he really forfeited his legitimacy when he led Manning down the primrose path, causing Manning to throw his life away, while he Assange was able to waltz off into the sunset doing his rockstar hero act.  

    The torch has passed to Anonymous, and here's to hoping they can dig up their own BofA file.  At least they don't have a personality cult, and they do their own risky digging rather than enticing others to do it for them.  

    --

    As for whether Assange should be charged, I would gladly trade him for Manning in a heartbeat.  The US Gov fatally botched Manning's case by mistreating him in custody and not giving him a speedy trial.  On one hand, he did significant damage, of the type that ordinarily would be an open-and-shut case for a life sentence without parole.  But on the other hand, based on some fairly close knowledge of the whole affair, he has more psych problems than meet the eye (bipolar disorder for one), he was in a manic state when he was enticed & groomed by Assange, and he could almost certainly be rehabilitated.  

    Assange, like other famous narcissists including Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich, probably can't be rehabilitated.  So that's where the whole thing comes to rest for me.  In a world of perfect justice, Assange would make a perfect cellmate for Newt.

    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

    by G2geek on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 11:06:06 PM PDT

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    •  iirc sweden let him leave the country (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek, Davui, bronte17

      after his answering their questions satisfactorily.  

      there are two women, so iget them confused, but both of them seemed happy to have known him.  it was only after they compared notes that any dispute arose.  one of them continued to invite him to dinners and parties, etc.

      i'm not up on all the details right now as i once was, but when it happened, i was frigging horrified at how the EU police completely overturned habeas corpus.  procedurally speaking NONE of this should be happening to assange right now.  you don't extradite someone for just for questioning.  

      sweden has no case.  there is no way this could ever be solved in court case.  there is no evidence of anything.  

      this is about getting him to the u.s.

      as far as the extreme case of the female sexual tormenter, let's take something a good deal more possible: the honeypot.  the sexual set-up to get him in deep water.  there was plenty of talk about one the women's connections  to intelligence sources, and people were warning assange to be on his guard.

      the point is, neither of the women did say no in the first instance.  in that regard, and again i'm sorry but i've got to say it, their story is not one of rape but rather a cautionary tale on the pitfalls of casual sex outside a relationship of mutual respect.

      the us govt isn't trying manning, the army is.  and when you are in t he military you haven't got the same rights as a citizen.  he really hasn't got the right to a speedy trial, i believe.  

      again, i'm not up on how the interaction between manning and assange played out.  doesn't assange maintain he never knew him?

      i think it would be horrid if they sent manning away for life.  but look what they did to john walker linde.  america does not always love its children.  

      i'm upset at the way the major papers have seemed to equivocate their stance on the wikileaks - the nyt esp.  
      it doesn't matter if assange is a gadfly or a narcissist or a pain in the ass, there's a principle at stake here and they needed to stand by their actions and not fold as they did. the nyt's editor in  chief was particularly disappointing, imo.

      Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with a-holes - William Gibson. (-9.75 / -9.05)

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Mon Jun 25, 2012 at 11:40:39 PM PDT

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      •  This hits the nail on the head really (0+ / 0-)

        "the point is, neither of the women did say no in the first instance.  in that regard, and again i'm sorry but i've got to say it, their story is not one of rape but rather a cautionary tale on the pitfalls of casual sex outside a relationship of mutual respect."

        There appear to be four prospective "charges" from the Swedish prosecutors. Two of them are things that might happen in any consensual sexual encounter: the man using his body weight to 'pin' the woman's legs open or some such for some unspecified period of time, and the other being walking up behind the woman he had sex with the night before and rubbing his penis on her thigh. The Swedish prosecutors have decided these are "sex crimes" somehow. Only one of the four is being called "rape", and, yes, what's described is not rape. And the woman did not say "no", and has never called what happened rape or accused Assange of raping her. The Swedish prosecutors have chosen to call it that. And on hearing of this the woman in question is quoted as saying that calling it that is going too far. But then she must have a "false consciousness" because of her indoctrination into a patriarchal society, so that she just doesn't know what a victim she is. The prosecutors know better.

        In any case, this allegation (the one they call "rape") is this woman and assange had consensual sex together the night before using condoms at her request. Then they slept in the same bed, and the next morning, Assange supposedly initiated intercourse again while the woman was "half asleep" (in other words: awake but maybe still groggy) in one version of her story, or "asleep" in another version of her story. But she says Assange wasn't wearing a condom this time. And when realizing this she did not say something like "Stop! Put a condom on or I don't want to have sex." Instead, she asked him if he had HIV. Then he said no, and then that was the end of it and she just kept on having sex with him. Rape?!? Isn't it reasonable here to think that Assange thought her concern was STDs, and that he'd reassured her and addressed her concern?

        The woman did not perceive what was happening to be rape at the time (and, as noted above, rejected that description when hearing that the prosecutors imposed it on her behalf). And Assange certainly didn't perceive it that way. So two people are having consensual sex and neither of them thinks what's happening is rape while it's happening, or think of it that way long after it happened. But the prosecutors somehow know better. If this isn't a political railroad job, it's certainly some activist prosecutors bending over backwards to force some kind of criminal charges out of these stories.

    •  How about we don't "trade" either one (1+ / 0-)

      and we push back against the tide of authoritarian corruption that has swept them both out to sea.

      Assange and the BoA revelations are the main components of this unfolding drama. The US military is strong enough to withstand any scrutiny of its "bad apples" and mistakes in the time of "war." The Pentagon doesn't fear the releases from Assange, they just wince... OTOH Bank of America and Corporate America do fear the sunlight revealing their malfeasance. Of course, the US Military is an arm of Corporate America.

      And the sad part of all this is that Assange the Australian actually believes in the hype and the foggy myths built over the past 250 years of this experiment in democracy called the United States of America. Assange actually gives a damn about bending the arc of justice toward a more perfect world.

      And he gets hammered as a narcissist for it. You have to believe in yourself so you can stand up for those principles you believe are right.

      Manning tried very hard to do that too. Sacrificed for the greater good.


      In my honor he pulled out old forgotten dignity and walked straight in a crooked world. ~~poetry of young Barack Obama

      by bronte17 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 at 04:34:51 AM PDT

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