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View Diary: BREAKING: HRW releases torture report on Syria (44 comments)

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  •  Also.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Claudius Bombarnac, Funkygal

    Human Rights Watch condemned the torture in Libya today.

    From the link above regarding Libya:

    “Torture and illegal detention are an ongoing national crisis"
    So, the Assad regime in Syria is terrible, but what would an intervention do?  The same as in Libya? Change from one regime that commits torture to another one that commits torture?  
    •  You obviously missed the part where HRW is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      angry marmot, mookins

      calling it state-sanctioned torture in Syria while in Libya, in contrast, it says that torture is taking place in militia prisons where the state does not have control yet.

      And you obviously have missed the fact that people can't do anything about it via democratic means in Syria, whereas the people of Libya will be voting for their constituent assembly and  a new govt. this Saturday.

      But that's par for the course with you.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 04:57:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Funkygal

        is simple.   Libya is not better after the intervention and destruction there.   Although a horrible dictator (Gaddafi) is gone, the new situation may be even worse.   They can not have real elections as armed gangs attack and occupy election commission centers (see my diary from yesterday) and widespread torture and war crimes continue by the different militias.   In a way the situation is worse, as there is now a fragmented regime, composed by different militias with different interests who have no problem killing or torturing.   That country is in complete chaos and Putin was right when he recently pointed that out.    The intervention in Libya did not make things better.   More people got killed because of the NATO bombings, but the outcome is chaos, and continuation of torture and war crimes by the uncontrolled militias.   That's why I am strongly against any intervention in Syria, as I was against any intervention in Iraq and Libya.

        •  Oh yeah... "Putin was right". (0+ / 0-)

          What next?  Are you going to be quoting Pravda?

          You don't know any Libyans and obviously don't really know what's going on there since your comments are always so chock full of inaccuracies, hyperbole, massive exaggerations, and speculation.

          Just because a country has not become a perfect state a mere 7 months after the fall of the dictator, it doesn't mean that it is in "complete chaos".

          I bet you'll never admit that you were wrong about Libya, no matter how much the situation there improves in the future.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 07:19:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes Putin is right (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Funkygal

            If Libya becomes a real democracy, I will have no problem whatsoever admitting I was wrong.   But so far, it seems to be even worse than Iraq as an outcome.

            •  Oh really, You live in an alternate universe. (0+ / 0-)

              This morning's news from Iraq:
              50 Killed in Iraq by Truck Bombs, Explosives and Gunfire
              The latest news from Libya:
              The Libyan Regime releases ICC officials accused of "spying" - Updated
              The latest negative news from Libya:
              Protesters storm Libya election office in Benghazi

              And how many were killed in that fracas? Zero!

              And how many were injured in that fracas? Zero!

              Yet here you are on a blog about torture in Syria trying to divert the discussion into how things are worst in Libya.

              Personally I'd much rather be in Benghazi than Homs right now.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 09:36:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I provided you (0+ / 0-)

                a link from a very recent report of Human Rights Watch in which it is indicated torture is widespread and a major issue in Libya, but of course you chose to ignore it.   Your reality is selective.

              •  Life in Libya has become more sectarian (0+ / 0-)
                German Businesses Unwelcome in Postwar Libya

                If Meinardus is successful with his conference, and if he manages to have his ideas about freedom take root in a new Libya, he could pave the way for the long-term success of Schnaars, the logistics manager, and the shipping company he works for. The FDP and its foundation aren't just interested in freedom; they also seek to promote the free market economy.
                ...
                "How strong would the liberal parties be if there were elections today?" Meinardus asks.

                "People would vote for the Islamists," the old man says.

                Meinardus walks around the room until a young man in a tracksuit top gets up and blocks his path. "You want to separate Islam from the state? But that's the opposite of freedom," he says.
                ...
                "Whether it's car markets, weapons markets or bird markets, these are simply not places for women in Libya," Ebkura says. Then she talks about a Libya that, despite having killed its dictator, continues to oppress its people. "I can no longer go into a café without a male companion, without having to fear being berated as un-Islamic," she says. "Hardly any women dare to wear their hair uncovered anymore."

                Men and women fought side by side during the revolution, Ebkura says. But today, she continues, she is the only woman at demonstrations and she is mishandled by men during them.

        •  Things are better in Syria than Libya now, right? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mookins

          You think there is more torture in Libya now than there was under Qaddafi.

          You are angry that Qaddafi wasn't allowed to do what Assad is doing. That's unfair.

          But why are you here, on a blog about torture in Syria and trying to divert the discussion to another country?

          Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

          by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 07:38:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Dont be ridiculous again (0+ / 0-)

            as always.

            •  You said it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins
              Although a horrible dictator (Gaddafi) is gone, the new situation may be even worse.  
              In a way the situation is worse
              The intervention in Libya did not make things better.
              You show your longing for the "good ole days" of Mummar Qaddafi as you fight to extend the regimeof Bashar al-Assad.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 07:52:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are so funny (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Funkygal

                I am against all dictators.   I just dont like interventions that makes things worse, as it happened in Iraq and Libya.   One the other hand, you are selectively against some dictators, but you dont have problems with others and you even praise them (as you praise the current Libyan regime that tolerates torture and war crimes).    When the facts are against you, you resort to name calling.   That shows your weakness.

    •  Also... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kvetchnrelease, Lawrence

      al-Assad today confirmed that Syrian defense forces were responsible for downing the Turkish aircraft on 22 June; not, as you intimated, by the crew of a Russian vessel. Whatever narrative you're spinning in your head re both Syria and Libya seems quite removed from reality. Why is that?

      Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

      by angry marmot on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 05:30:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

        Thats funny.   I just quoted the news and you made it that it was "spinning" now.  Go and read again the diary and comments.   When I realized it was not legit, I wrote it down.  

      •  The reality is that we have so diluted defining (0+ / 0-)

        torture that when examples like those in the diary are exposed, we loathe less due to the jaded exposure given waterboarding. No matter who remains in power in Syria, the torture will continue. The President would be ill advised to involve us in this conflict.

        "If the past sits in judgment on the present, the future will be lost." Winston Churchill

        by Kvetchnrelease on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 05:53:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, after the revolution, Libya still has some (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mookins

      work to do. Because after a brutal dictator is overthrown there will always be people who want revenge. After Assad is overthrown, Syria will have the same problem.

      You want to know why? Read the report.

      Yes, HRW said

      In militia-run detention facilities especially, torture and other ill-treatment are a major concern, Human Rights Watch said.  Human Rights Watch documented a dozen cases of deaths in detention and heard credible reports of more
      My question is why are you bring this up here and now? Are you trying to create some sort of parity between torture in Syria and Libya now?

      That is just and underhanded way of defending Assad torture, which is apparently something you feel the need to do todasy.

      Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

      by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jul 03, 2012 at 07:28:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am not defending torture, you are.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Funkygal

        I have repeatedly written that the Assad regime is terrible.   But you are defending and speak highly of the current Libyan regime, despite Amnesty International and Human Rights watch calling it for torture and war crimes.  

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