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View Diary: New Information Emerges on Pope John Paul II (308 comments)

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  •  No Evidence Required by Anyone (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, Hugin, caul

    You have no evidence and you can't recall any inside the book you recommend,.

    Sorry, but why should I read it if you can't recall anything in addition to no autopsey and no medicine container?  

    I'll tell you what I bring to the conversation, too.  I am a rational, open-minded reader of this diary.  I have reached the conclusion that the diary claims the pope was poisoned based on zero evidence.  As a rational, logical person, I can point out the simple fact that all the supposed "evidence" of poisoning presented, no autopsey conducted and no test for poison, does not come close to proving poisoning.

    If the author of a diary makes a claim, that author is obligated to present evidence supporting his or her claim.  Here, the author has failed to meet this burden.  And I and anyone else can point this out.  

    •  thank you (7+ / 0-)

      for acknowledging that all you bring to the table is a persistent argumentative style and absolutely no knowledge of this or any related matter whatsoever.  

      I don't recall what Penny Lernoux said that she believed was the cause of death but she is a reputable source. If you actually cared about the matter, you would say thanks, maybe I'll check that out.

      I carry no brief for the diarist. But I have read Yallop and Lernoux, and for that matter historian Garry Wills (See his book Papal Sins), who thinks that the Curia at the time was a gang of liars, but does not believe that Pope John Paul I was murdered.  You, however, don't even know enough to be able to say that there are highly reputable scholars who have looked into it and not found murder.  

      •  I'm Sorry--I Guess I Should Accept as Fact Every (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        caul

        absurd thing I read on the internet, without question.  Oh wait a minute, no I won't.  I'm not so stupid I'll ever do that.  

        However, you unintentionally make a very good point.  

        If the author wished to make the argument the the Vatican is a cesspool of rightwingers, corrupt bankers, and pedophiles, there is actually plenty of evidence supporting those claims.  However, she wastes her time, my time, and your time by making the unsupported claim the Pope was poisoned.  

        So we all waste time discussing her unsupported claim, instead of focusing on what is actually supported by the facts, and what we should do about them.    

        It's the same thing with the "9/11 Truthers."  The facts show Bush was warned of a terrorist attack, did nothing, and then used 9/11 for propaganda to march for war against Iraq.  Also, the attack was masterminded by Ossama bin Ladin, a CIA asset who we previously used to organise a international Moslem religious insurgency in Afganistan.    

        Instead of discussing these facts and what to do about them, we discuss how whether or not explosives were planted in the buildings.  Just another distraction and   waste of time.  

        •  that you waste your time (8+ / 0-)

          on these things is your business. When you become obnoxious in a comment thread, that is the community's business.

          The diarist made clear that her main source Yallop only has circumstantial evidence regarding the poison issue, so your demand for "evidence" from the diarist suggests that you did not actually read the diary before objecting to it.

          The authors who have written about the matter demonstrate that a number of people had motive, means and opportunity to kill the pope, even if there is, and may always be, insufficient evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.  

          That you object so mightily to something about which you know nothing says a great deal more about you than it does about anything the diarist has written.

          •  Making Up Stuff is WRONG (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            caul

            There isn't any "evidence," direct or circumstantial, that Pope JP was poisoned to death.  That's the point.  

            Motive, means, and opportunity to kill someone, when you have zero evidence that person was murdered, means nothing.  For example, many people had the motive, means and opportunity to kill Queen Elizabeth I of England, but we have no evidence she was poisoned to death, nevermind murdered.  

            Many people had the motive means and opportunity to kill our first president, George Washington, but that doesn't show he was poisoned to death, nevermind murdered.

            You see, I do know quite a bit about logic, evidence, critical thinking and reasoning.  That's why I object to this nonsense.  Here, the claim the Pope was posioned to death is unsupported by any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.          

            •  You opine vociferously (4+ / 0-)
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              SeaTurtle, G2geek, KenBee, Ginny in CO

              on matters about which you know nothing, apparently less than nothing.

              Nuff said.

              •  Same as You, Concerning the Pope's Death (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                KenBee

                However, unlike you, I can tell shit from Shinola.  

                •  no, you can't: you just stepped in it. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Ginny in CO

                  You just succeeded in making yourself out to be aggressively ignorant on the subject matter.

                  If I were you I'd at least scrub the poo off my shoes before going back inside.

                  "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                  by G2geek on Wed Jul 04, 2012 at 08:39:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It isn't always about what is known or specific (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Frederick Clarkson

                  memories of significant ideas or information from all authors. Usually it started with wondering, a question, some knowledge that raised more questions. Because the answers are not readily available does not automatically disqualify the questions. Waiting for new information, often from documents obtained thru FOIA or declassification, may be the only option.

                  Making people aware of what is known  and questionable may be useful for some, not others. The overwhelming reality of forensic, intel and other investigative work is it can involve sifting through mounds of useless stuff before you find the useful.

                  You will never convince the questioners to quit. If you don't care to join, fine. Trying to get a small determined group of people not to pursue knowledge that may reveal important actions to take is quite useless.

                  Please do find something else you are informed on to apply your knowledge of logic, evidence, critical thinking and reasoning.

                  "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                  by Ginny in CO on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 04:02:27 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I agree, making stuff up is wrong (0+ / 0-)

              so kindly point out where the diarist made a positive claim that John Paul I was poisoned. While you're at it, how about pointing to where the diarist "made up" anything, as opposed to simply reporting on actual events and what others have written about them.

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Thu Jul 05, 2012 at 12:48:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Persons close to the Vatican (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ginny in CO, lotlizard, SeaTurtle

        have written me and stated that most definitely Luciani was murdered. Infact, it is a settled matter for Italians and other Europeans.  The enduring problem with Vatican affairs is that, other than the source for Nuzzi's book, "Vatican SpA", all negative information comes from anonymous sources.

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