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View Diary: "Welcome to the rest of our lives" (91 comments)

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  •  Couple things ... (9+ / 0-)

    1.  Science vs belief based.  Data and statistics and real-world changes and ... vs Bible thumping.  E.g., I am quite uncomfortable with the opening framing.

    2.  Now, perhaps with the appropriate discussion of [1] first, there is some degree of parallelism between 'repent or the world will end' and 'clean up our act or it is going to get far, far, far worse ...'

    3. And, well, there are many people trying to figure out the 'how' of this for a long time.  Sadly, scientists aren't necessarily effective communicators.

    Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

    by A Siegel on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 04:57:34 AM PDT

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    •  if people were already floating naked into the sky (9+ / 0-)

      then there might be some parity in these predictions.
      Aside from the obvious fact that science is completely different than prophecy in everything from exactitude to discoverable methodology, there is real time evidence of the reality of climate chaos. It is increasing in severity, occurrence, and geography. There is no corresponding evidence of the Rapture.

      Class war has consequences, and we are living them.

      by kamarvt on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 05:42:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  this isn't about evidence (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        scarvegas, A Siegel, RunawayRose, jam

        and in a way you make my point: your POV seems to be limited to a bias or belief that facts are somehow self evident or should be. they aren't. imo.

        the point is this: those people who believe in the rapture may see this climate thing as validating their belief. and who knows, maybe it is.

        i just wonder: how do we talk to each other?

        as for me, even if the climate weren't taking a nose dive, it would not change my belief that we need to respect the earth and find balance and parity with all our fellow earthlings.

        i'm not now repenting because of the possibility of doom... i've made a choice about my values i'd like to join with others who believe in common good, social justice, economic parity, the right of all creatures from ants to trees to exist and understanding their sacrifice (in nature) as native Americans seemed to understand it.

        •  the people you reference are a specific subset (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          they must be spoken to in biblical terms, and with the Voice of Authoritah.
          You and I are discounted right off the bat, so you would likely waste your time, as I have. But someone they trust (attend church with) can get them to see things slightly differently than they have been led to see.
          Like that the current focus of "God's Wrath" appears to be centered not on a modern day Sodom, but on the Bible Belt, and Texas, land of the Holy, is being plagued by drought while NYC and LA are having a relatively pleasant summer. That since the scientists say we started this, it might not actually be the End Times, but a test of our stewardship of the Earth...

          But I still hold that anyone who can make the leap from denialism to End Times in one take is beyond reason, and reason is what holds society together.

          Class war has consequences, and we are living them.

          by kamarvt on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 10:30:43 AM PDT

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    •  maybe my point is missed: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      scarvegas, RunawayRose

      it's not what is truer; it is not: science vs faith.

      people act on what they BELIEVE. data? science? fact-based? not relevant. and that's where I believe we go wrong.

      we think teh facts have some inherent power... the truth is a blazing white unavoidable light... it's a nice story, but i'm not sure it is how things happen or upon what our actions are based.

      and if i'm correct and people act on belief, then how do we find a way to penetrate that part of the brain? and direct belief towards what we (people like us i suppose) believe reality to be: that we are very likely facing a climate catastrophe... of course, we need to add things we can do to adapt, mitigate et al.

      •  My point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        scarvegas, RunawayRose, pfiore8

        was slightly different -- was re the importance of understanding the different basis for discussion.

        And, yes, it is intriguing to see whether there is a communications link. Now, those 'wanting' the rapture will want to hasten catastrophic climate chaos (don't have the energy to search for it, but I've actually seen advocacy for burning more fossil fuels for just this reason) as opposed to those who argue 'to avert G-d's retribution, we must do X'.

        Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart NOW! for a sustainable energy future.

        by A Siegel on Tue Jul 10, 2012 at 07:57:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  mine? the communications link... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          A Siegel, TiaRachel

          progressives (it seems to me) are hooked on facts. if people just knew the truth......................... then they would behave differently?

          i avoid using the word "fact" and have replaced it with data. it helped me to understand that people process data in many different ways with so many variables.

          what i'm suggesting is that "facts" don't change things. we are heading off an environmental cliff and there are those in power with much more access to information and data regarding climate and its consequences. yet Rio fizzles out and our political leaders focus the national discourse on cultural issues. it isn't that marriage equality isn't important, but it's not species-threatening. Fukushima may be. regardless of "the facts" the Japanese and the rest of those in "control" carry on like they have unlimited resources, time, and power.

          are they evil? i used to think so. now? no, not evil. stupid maybe, visionless, vain, selfish, borderline personality types exhibiting drug addicted like behavior of denial of consequence... and let me tell you this: FACTS don't get through to them. they aren't rational as we would describe it.

          so why do we continue to play the game the way we do? why??? i'm reading, once again, the "most important election of our lifetime"... or it's the "supreme court stupid"... and i think to myself: REALLY?

          think of the rapture thing in this context: how it sounds like the doomsday climate thing... not right or wrong, but how we message what we believe, whatever it is and whatever informs those beliefs.

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