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View Diary: Sexism, Misandry, and Male-Bashing (87 comments)

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  •  What is this post even about? (9+ / 0-)

    "Misandry", first of all, is one of the most OVER used words in a lot of gender debates online. There is an endless supply of "mens rights activists" (the equivalent of white people who believe in reverse racism) who think misandry is the biggest threat to human existence ever known.

    Unfortunately they'd also completely disagree with you that men need to become more emotional and less inhibited by gender stereotypes. For the most part they LOVE the gender stereotypes and feel that the worst thing that ever happened was when we stopped believing in men's evolutionary mission to spread seed and establish their manly heroism through war.

    •  What Is Post About? (4+ / 0-)

      Frankly, your post seems to exemplify what I was talking about. I admit my view of men is shaped by real life experience, not by what happens online. I don't think the blogosphere is exactly representative.

      by Redstocking on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 10:40:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've raised two boys (7+ / 0-)

        They'd be the first to tell you that it's an advantage to be a male in this society. Because it is and probably always will be, thanks to sheer brute strength and the convenience of their anatomy relative to women.

        However, you really need to face up to WHO is saying boys shouldn't cry/wear pink/play with baby carriages ... it's not women. It's men. I never reinforced any of those stereotypes and can't stand them, but I think you've identified exactly the wrong culprit in blaming it on "misandry".

        •  yeah I noticed that too (4+ / 0-)

          the main perpetrators of misandry are other men. They are the ones looking at you like youre a freak when you say you are a caretaker, homemaker, etc. They are the ones nervously laughing when your boy likes the pink shirt over the blue. Are there some women out there doing the same thing? Sure. But I would venture that a good portion of it is men too.

          Squidward: The noises! How are you two making those noises?

          Patrick: Well, that's easy. All you need is a box.

          SpongeBob: And...imagi~nation!

          by rexymeteorite on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 10:47:03 AM PDT

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          •  women too (8+ / 0-)

            it's both.  down here parents are afraid to let their boys play house or with dolls because they fear their kid will turn gay.

            it's pretty equal between the women and men down here. both sexes put their children in their place respective to gender.

            it's not common to see parents who let their kids figure things out for themselves.

            it starts early too.  women can't stand for their babies to mixed up as the opposite sex.  blue for boys and pink for girls.  

            and we're probably all a little guilty of it at some point, some time.

            -You want to change the system, run for office.

            by Deep Texan on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 11:18:01 AM PDT

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            •  We All Are a Little Guilty (5+ / 0-)

              Deep Texan, you are absolutely right that we are all a little guilty.

              I worry that parents' finding out the sex of their babies so relatively early in pregnancy increases sexism. In my generation, you are 9 months to anticipate either sex.

              I did not buy sexist toys. I art supplies, blocks, legos, puzzles. Their father made a splendid dollhouse that both boys and girls love. I searched out nonsexist books and frequently changed male animals into girls. It is harder for my three daughters now mothers to avoid the pink princess explosion.

              I think babies should wear bright primary colors; red is my favorite baby color.

              Kids tend to be in group settings younger. It might be harder to protect them from the general cultural sexism.

              My daughters are 39, 37, 33, and 30. In too many ways we seem to be going backward.


              by Redstocking on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 11:29:28 AM PDT

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            •  Meh. (0+ / 0-)

              I gave up on judging a baby's gender early on, when my two were bald as Ike and I refused to tape a bow on daughter's head just so people would stop saying "Isn't HE cute?" - even when dressed all in pink.

              Just say, "Isn't that the cutest baby EVER!" and parents then introduce little [Andrew, Megan, whoever] and I can usually know if it's a boy or girl...

              Ah, the wisdom grandparents earn! §;o)

        •  Sexism Is the Culprit (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gzodik, raincrow, Mortifyd

          But isn't sheer brute strength increasingly less valued in our society? You are right about convenient male anatomy. I could not stand that my baby brothers could do something I could not do, and tried an embarrassing number of times to pee standing up. I finally figured out it was  the lack of space around the toilet, not my inadequate aim, that was the real problem:)

          I took care of my grandson in a Chelsea playground and playrroom that was entirely women except for an occasional grandpa. Almost all of them were nannies from all over the world. They were a lot more guys in the same playground in the 70s. But then people weren't working such long hours.

          I confess I was a little uneasy about giving my grandson a pink stroller, but every boy in the playground gravitated to it while the girls ignored it:)

          But I agree that both men and women are guilty of misandry just as both are guilty of misogyny. I am not impressed by generalizations about gender differences. If my oldest had been a boy and my second daughter a girl, I might have succumbed to the generalizations other parents were making.

          I believe sexism is the main culprit. In the 70s and 80s we were rather obsessed with nonsexist childrearing. I don't think my daughters ever had a  pink toy. Now, when I walk into a kids toy store, I feel sick.

          by Redstocking on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 10:58:37 AM PDT

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          •  Men don't have more dangerous jobs (3+ / 0-)

            Unless they choose them. And they get paid a hell of a lot for that risk. It's another opportunity to make money that women don't have - again due to the brute strength you're saying doesn't matter.

            I'm extremely confused by your claim that you are a misogynist. You mean you hate your own gender? I have always gotten along well with men also, and was even in the Coast Guard in my younger days (had loads of fun), but I'd feel like a traitor to myself if I joined in on all the misogyny that surrounds me in this society. It hurts me that it is still so prevalent. I'd never want to add to it.

            •  Had a boss once (3+ / 0-)

              who explained to me why I was making HALF the money my male counterpart made doing much less of the same job than I did - that he's a man so he needs more money to "support his family" than I needed, to actually support my family while husband was back in school on the GI Bill.

              Nor was my male counterpart required to put up with 70-something boss sneaking up behind his workstation to rub shoulders - "you look stressed..."

              I got pretty darned good at quickly sliding out of my chair sideways and taking myself elsewhere quickly...

              Until equal pay for equal work is a reality - and not a reality achieved by lowering everybody to minimum wage - I don't have all that much sympathy for men who feel other men don't appreciate their chosen professions as manly enough.

            •  I don't agree (6+ / 0-)

              with this so much

              Men don't have more dangerous jobs (1+ / 0-)

              Unless they choose them. And they get paid a hell of a lot for that risk.

              That may be true in some circumstances, but not many. Being a cell tower climber is the most dangerous profession today and they generally make about 10 dollars an hour. Construction work is not much better paying.  

              There are not that many jobs that require brute force nowadays. Being a Administrative Assistant pays more than a lot of jobs done mainly by men and in a lot of cases is not viewed as okay for men to do this work.  The same is true of nursing and in teaching, especially when it comes to grade school and middle school teachers  and teachers assistants at all levels.  Women are now equal to men when it comes to being school Principals.

               There is a glass ceiling for women when you get to the very top of most business professions, but they do okay up until then.

              However, men of color are blocked much more than white women at any level except for the most low paying jobs. Many of these advantages that white women speak of are advantages to white males of a certain class. But there is a large portion of non-white men (who make up about 35% of the male population) who do not enjoy the benefits you speak of. This kind of thinking exemplifies why many nonwhite women are not that interested in the women's movement except maybe when it comes to birth control.


              by jennybravo on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 12:40:01 PM PDT

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          •  Nonsexist childrearing. (0+ / 0-)

            In the '70s we lived in a rather isolated country situation, and were determined to raise our daughter without sexual stereotyping.  We bought her little overalls and toy tools.

            Then, one day I saw the poor thing cradling a stick in  her arms, cooing to her "baby".

            If it had been a boy, he would have been pointing it like a pistol, going "Pow! Pow! Pow!."

            Stereotyping is bad, but you can't fight DNA.

            GOP: Bankers, billionaires, suckers, and dupes.

            by gzodik on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 11:48:56 AM PDT

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            •  Such nonsense (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raincrow, Mortifyd, Avilyn

              I raised two boys and a girl. They all enjoyed water guns. They all enjoyed stuffed animal "babies".

              •  Are you very young (0+ / 0-)

                or just not an objective observer? Hm. Maybe you have an ideology that says the Y chromosome can have no genes that affect personality? What do you call your planet?

                GOP: Bankers, billionaires, suckers, and dupes.

                by gzodik on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 12:47:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tell us: which are the "gun genes" on the Y chromo (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mortifyd, Avilyn

                  some? And while you're at it, how about a link to research on X-chromosomes, gene dose, and babydoll-love -- do girls feel twice the inclination as boys?

                  Every baby has its own personality and brings that personality to the sex role training that begins the moment it is born.

                  In my family, our sex role training included guns (powder/lead, water, and cap) and stuffed animals for boys and girls alike. My brother eventually grew away from stuffed animals.

                •  No just an experienced parent (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  I've got two awesome sons and one awesome daughter. NONE of them ever behaved like programmed devices. My daughter hated Barbies. My sons didn't like cars or trucks. They all liked guns, as did I and my sisters - because guns are FUN. (Toy ones obviously) They DO something. Dolls do nothing. They are an extremely dull toy that inspires neither imagination nor exercise.

                  My kids are grown now and as normal as rain. I am eternally grateful that I never listened to the evo psych squad. It seems to me they are, as a group, so deficient in normal instincts and intuition that they decide to let some random road map tell them what girls and boys "are".

                  It's all nonsense. My life proves it. My kids lives prove it.

            •  Did your non-sexist childrearing (0+ / 0-)

              extend to home schooling, no TV, no movies, no radio, no advertisements, etc.? Did you screen all of your daughter's playmates to insure that they were equally insulated from sexist influences? If not, I have to point out that the belief that parental influence can counter all external influence isn't born out by practical experience.

              That said, no one is claiming that there aren't innate differences between male and female but such differences clearly exist in varying degrees in given individuals rather than as genetic absolutes. It's certainly not news that some women lack a maternal drive. The number of women who remain childless by choice is proof of that. Then there is the phenomenon of male couples who adopt children. For such people, biology is clearly not destiny. At least not in the simplistic, binary sense you suggest.

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 01:34:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  total load of crap (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Avilyn, Cassandra Waites

              Damn near every child in my Army post childhood had a gun toy -  male or female - we were all soldiers children.  Male soldiers and female soldiers.  Sometimes we shot things, sometimes we cuddled things or played M*A*S*H on them.  Boy can cuddle and girls can shoot.  

              Way to bring the point of the diary home.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 01:38:09 PM PDT

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            •  So I guess in your view I have faulty DNA? (0+ / 0-)

              As I liked toy guns and sports and trucks and tractors, even though I'm a female?  

              I’m a feminist because the message is still "don’t get raped" not "don’t rape"

              by Avilyn on Wed Jul 11, 2012 at 02:14:58 PM PDT

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      •  Hrubec's post exemplifies what, though? (0+ / 0-)

        Sheesh, it's like being in a Cheech and Chong sketch.

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