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View Diary: Hey pundits, here's why Romney can't 'define himself' (150 comments)

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  •  Don't forget. (5+ / 0-)

    He is also a very prominent member of a very strange religion. I think if people knew more about mormonism's history and beliefs they might call into question grip on reality. Yes, I think it's fair game. This is a religion that changed it's mind about the status of black people in freaking 1978! Thier leader and founder was chased out of town by angry mobs virtually everywhere he went before finding a remote place to set up shop.

    •  Funny you should say this ..... (10+ / 0-)

      I just spent three weeks with someone who is a practicing Mormon and I liked him enormously.  He was open, very kind, had a great sense of humor and was very curious.  Also, he clearly was not a fan of Romney.  He asked me if I thought Romney's Mormonism would automatically mean he couldn't be elected.  I said that Romney had a lot more working against him than his religion and he agreed.

      In short, it's dangerous to generalize about Mormons or anyone else.  Some might call that bigotry.

      The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

      by accumbens on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 01:14:33 PM PDT

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      •  Interesting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nanorich

        I guess I will generalize your experience with that one mormon to include them all.

        •  No, the point is that exceptions disprove the rule (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, Dirtandiron

          I'm not saying all Mormons are like my new friend.  It's all about the (il)logic of inductive reasoning - that old black swan thing (which actually has been popularized away from its original meaning).  

          The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

          by accumbens on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 01:22:09 PM PDT

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          •  I have known Jack Mormons (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dirtandiron

            and I think if someone wants to actually understand Mitt Romney, you really, really have to understand the religious tradition he came from....

            and to ignore that by suggesting that Mormons are like everyone else on the basis of being one "gentile" to who talks to a Mormon would be a serious miscalculation.

            Anyone who has done any scholarship on Joseph Smith and the history of Mormonism can tell you that this isn't just an American Christian religious sect.

            Have you read
            "Under the Banner of Heaven"   it gives valuable insight into the mind of this religion and explains a lot about Mitt and his weirdness.

          •  I've known lots of Mormons, fine folks every one (0+ / 0-)

            Sure Mormons believe some really strange stuff (no need to go into it here, but trust me, really strange).  However, of the dozens I have known well enough to break bread and invite over, every single one was an honest, hardworking person.  I don't agree with lots of people that I nevertheless respect, and being honest and hardworking goes a long way with me.

            That said, the Mormon fringe who clung to polygamy and separated themselves (like the Romney clan that went to Mexico to keep multiple wives) are a different piece of business altogether.  A good friend whose epic midlife crisis left him broke and bumming around Lees Ferry, Fredonia, and Colorado City came back to get one of my guns.  He bore harrowing tales.  I advised a relocation.  I never heard from him again.

        •  It doesn't matter what religion you practice (7+ / 0-)

          it's how you practice

          We already have death panels. They're called insurance companies.

          by aztecraingod on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 01:42:23 PM PDT

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      •  Yeah, I've had LDS friends since I was 11, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        a gilas girl, SpamNunn, JeffW, Dirtandiron

        still friends with some of them, and made some new LDS friends in my adulthood.

        The sweeping generalizations that you'll read here are just that.

        I would be skeptical of an Anerican Catholic Bishop running for office, Tom Cruise who is apparently very high up in the Church of Scientology and I'm skeptical of Romney because he apparently is very influential in the LDS Church.

        It's hard to serve two masters. Jesus told us that.

        But attacks on mainstream religions and the people who hold those beliefs is just lazy thinking to me. Unless we're willing to toss out Harry Reid who's LDS, and Patty Murray who believes in Virgin Birth, and DWS who thinks she needs to avoid yeast (baking soda, sourdough starter, etc) at certain times of the year, I think religious attacks should be off limits.   I respect what DWS, Murray, Reid and others believe or choose not to believe.

        If Romney's faith informs his politics, we attack his politics.   It's just not that hard.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 02:45:34 PM PDT

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    •  Mormonism's fair game,but Obama shouldn't go there (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite

      Thanks to citizen's united, he doesn't have too.  Some anonymous PAC can start running ads about Mitt and his religion in the Bible belt.  Might not turn red states to Obama, but if evangelicals stay home and we get more seats in congress it's worth it.

    •  All religions are pretty strange (0+ / 0-)

      I'm not sure why Mormonism is any odder than others.  Probably more sexist with the men having harems and all, but most Mormons today don't have harems.

      I've only met a few Mormons, and all of them were cool guys.  

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 02:09:05 PM PDT

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      •  Harems? The LDS church banned plural (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW, MKSinSA

        Marriage over 100 years ago.

        Mitt Romney is a member of the LDS Church.

        The folks you might see on TV are not.  "Mormons" do not all practice similar faiths,  just as "Christians" do not.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 02:49:52 PM PDT

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      •  It is odd (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Creosote

        because it was made up by a con man....

        who based his religion on Masonic ritual...

        and most of what they believe is only revealed to converts after they have entered the temple.

        Read Under the Banner of Heaven if you want to know what Mormonism is all about.

        It isn't about cool guys.

        •  Most religions are full of con men (0+ / 0-)

          I don't see how that sets Mormonism apart from others.  Look at all the con-men who preach the Christian faith.

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Sat Jul 28, 2012 at 10:14:37 AM PDT

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    •  the religion itself (0+ / 0-)

      I think should be off limits.  But the bishop status, that is an issue I think.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 03:45:27 PM PDT

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      •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

        Why should a religion made up by a con man which keeps its weird tenets secret until you convert....

        be off limits?

        L. Ron Hubbard borrowed freely from Joseph Smith when he made up his religion.

        would you make Scientology off limits?

        •  because to my mind (0+ / 0-)

          all religions have some dimensions of a con man to them, and the First Amendment says religion is off limits.  I tend to let the Constitution guide my decision making when line drawing becomes necessary.

          I would make Scientology, qua Scientology off limits as well, if a Scientologist ran for POTUS, yes.  

          If someone was a high ranking official in that religion, that I would question.  

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 06:58:30 PM PDT

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          •  Well (0+ / 0-)

            actually, the first amendment says nothing of the kind.

            But if you are so incurious as not take into account all aspects of a candidate's life,

            and don't want to actual figure out what makes them tick, you aren't making the constitution your guide, you are ignoring the very basis of Romney's candidacy.

            The Mormon church spent millions of dollars in the battle for Prop 8.  They are one of the political churches in the United States, and have been actively working to get Mitt elected.

            But if you don't care about that, what do you care about?

            All religions are not alike, and not knowing the history of the LDS church and its political influence seem bizarre to me.  

            •  I'm perfectly well aware of everything (0+ / 0-)

              the Mormon church did, which is something which is not off limits.  The point is that a person shouldn't be criticized for their religious beliefs.

              A church can be criticized for its actions.

              The line between the church as an institution and its individual members is quite distinct.  If you can't see that, then the problem isn't one of incuriousness on my part I would suggest.  

              Individual person's religious beliefs should never on their own be a criteria which prevents them from taking any job.  That would be religious discrimination. No matter what the religion is, I would never want to be party to religious discrimination.

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Fri Jul 27, 2012 at 08:44:39 PM PDT

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