Skip to main content

View Diary: BREAKING: Senior Syrian diplomat to Armenia defects (175 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Instead of this semantic dodging around... (0+ / 0-)

    a quiet retreat would have probably been a more dignified response to being so thoroughly refuted.

    And no, I don't attribute all opposition to military intervention I support to "unchanging" anti-Americanism.  There are some legitimately tough calls, and even in cases that aren't tough, there are other dumbass reasons, other than anti-Americanism, that can explain them.  An unreflective pacifism, or instance, or a libertarianish isolationism.

    Now you've gone and falsely attributed yet another belief to me.  Do you think it means anything, in terms of the legitimacy of my argument, that this keeps happening?

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:01:25 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Ha (3+ / 0-)

      You declare yourself the "refuter," do you? Needless to say, I disagree.

      For your edification, the comment that began this particular subthread:

      "It's been amazing how quickly the talking points coming out of Moscow and Damascus show up here.  It's comparable to how language from Republican Presidential candidates' press releases shows up in the Letters to the Editor section of local newspapers."

      Nice brush you got there.

    •  Armando doesn't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joe from Lowell

      do losing gracefully or admitting he's wrong in the first 72 hours.

        •  Also when I am wrong (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SpecialKinFlag, chipmo

          Joe's judgmental contempt for those who distrust the use of US military power is certainly nothing new.

          I think I am right about that. But you can judge his comments for yourself I am sure.

          •  He's writing this about an Iraq War opponent... (0+ / 0-)

            and someone who opposes military intervention in Syria.

            Yup, I sure do have judgmental contempt for people who distrust the use of US military power.

            That's me, baby.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:20:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Pretty much (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SpecialKinFlag, BradyB, chipmo

              Joe this is not the first time you have demonstrated contempt for people such as, say, Glenn Greenwald. Indeed, even if you agree with such folks, you have to sprinkle the contempt.

              I am curious though, why do you oppose intervention in Syria?

              •  I have contempt for weak minds and dishonesty. (0+ / 0-)

                I am not one to suffer fools gladly, and I abhor liars and manipulators.  It's really not a question of their beliefs, but their intellectual habits.  Getting back to the topic of the diary, I have no problem with people who oppose military intervention, but I do hold those who repeat the Syrian/Russian propaganda line with such obedient enthusiasm, and there are quite a few people who do that.

                People need to be a little less gullible about where they get their information, and about who is pushing it.  People who treat Russia Today as an independent, credible source advocating for a viewpoint based on progressivism and anti-imperialism, for instance, are suckers, and they should be called suckers.  They are being played for marks, and they should really stop that.

                Maybe, at some future time, when there is a better chance of having a fruitful discussion, we'll get into the reasons why I oppose direct military intervention.  Short version: pragmatic considerations relating to the specific situation, informed by a healthy (though not irrefutable!) skepticism regarding the limits of American military power.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:34:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I have never advocated NATO intervention in Syria (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Cynical Copper

                The pro-Assad people like to say I have so that they can attack the Syrian revolution and argue Assad's positions on just about every question.

                The whole question of NATO intervention is a canard by the pro-Assad folks to obscure what is really going on. Nobody else serious thinks there is any chance NATO will intervene, Russia or no Russia.

                Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

                by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:55:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't have an opinion on that (0+ / 0-)

                  But if there is no question of American intervention, we're really just arguing amongst ourselves right? Or are there other international actions (sanctions, etc.) issues in play?

                  I oppose all dictators, Assad included.

            •  Also your words (0+ / 0-)

              "Is there a popular uprising in China? (2+ / 0-)
              The Iraqis didn't overthrow Saddam; we did.  Unlike Libya and Syria, in which the Libyans and Syrians themselves - the people who were living under those dictatorships - overthrew them, and we played a supporting role comparable to the French Fleet at Yorktown.

              It is a giant, glaring blind spot not to recognize the difference between the US toppling someone else's government, vs. the U.S. backing locals who topple their own government."

              •  What about them? (0+ / 0-)

                I stand by those words, and none of them involve calling anyone pro-Assad.

                What are you even accusing me of anymore?

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:35:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I am stating that your words (0+ / 0-)

                  were reasonably, if erroneously, construed to speak of support for intervention in Syria.  You wrote:

                  "Unlike Libya and Syria, in which the Libyans and Syrians themselves - the people who were living under those dictatorships - overthrew them, and we played a supporting role comparable to the French Fleet at Yorktown.

                  It is a giant, glaring blind spot not to recognize the difference between the US toppling someone else's government, vs. the U.S. backing locals who topple their own government."

                  My recollection is you supported intervention in Libya. you comparison of the situations, given your previous support, led to my reasonable but erroneous conclusion, that you supported intervention in Syria.

                  As for the equation issue, that is best understood in the context of the response - to wit , my response was to just such an equation. Your taking issue with my statement on China,  was, at best,  off topic.

        •  Then show us. (0+ / 0-)

          This would be a really awesome time for you to admit to losing, and to being wrong.

          For instance, how about my position on military intervention in Syria?  And what my (imagined) position on that policy says about my way of thinking about the world?

          Is there anything you'd like to say on that topic, by way of demonstrating how willing you are to admit to error?

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:18:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I took the wrong inference (0+ / 0-)

            from your response to my response to the comment that accused people who do not support military intervention in Syria as being pro-Assad.

            Given that your appeared to contest my point, I assumed, wrongly it turns out, that you agreed with the sentiment expressed, at least in theory.

            As for your position on Syria, I don't know how you came to hold it. I do find it interesting that you took a discussion regarding whether being anti-US intervention in Syria as being pro-Assad and turned it in to what your personal views are on the subject.

            I don't hold a position on the issue, but I do object to the equation of anti military intervention with being pro-Assad.

            You have said precious little on that score.

            •  Step 1: admit you're wrong. (0+ / 0-)

              Step 2: understand why you were wrong.

              Step 3: use that understanding to avoid being wrong in the future.

              You wrote:

              Given that your appeared to contest my point, I assumed, wrongly it turns out, that you agreed with the sentiment expressed, at least in theory.
              This would be a good time for Step 2.  I'm hoping to see Step 3 in the future.
              the equation of anti military intervention with being pro-Assad.

              You have said precious little on that score.

              Cripes, now it appears that you can't even manage Step 1.  I've said precious little about whether being against intervention makes one pro-Assad?  You mean, other than the half-dozen comments where I said I was against intervention?

              Art is the handmaid of human good.

              by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:27:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I think that I learned that (0+ / 0-)

                you are willing to derail a discussion. Rather, I relearned it.

                Should have remembered your style.

                Your first comment to me was to attempt to take me to task for disagreeing with the equation in question. I assumed your comment was intended to be on topic. Obviously not.

                Still not sure why you are anti-intervention in Syria.

              •  From a nonsupporter of military intervention (0+ / 0-)

                "Is there a popular uprising in China? (2+ / 0-)
                The Iraqis didn't overthrow Saddam; we did.  Unlike Libya and Syria, in which the Libyans and Syrians themselves - the people who were living under those dictatorships - overthrew them, and we played a supporting role comparable to the French Fleet at Yorktown.

                It is a giant, glaring blind spot not to recognize the difference between the US toppling someone else's government, vs. the U.S. backing locals who topple their own government."

                In retrospect, my error is perfectly understandable. A reasonable interpretation of your comment was that you supported military intervention in Syria.

                It turns out you do not, but my error is not unreasonable. also too, why do you oppose intervention in Syria?

                •  As I've said already, we can discuss my opposition (0+ / 0-)

                  at some other time, when you seem more up for it.

                  Because, at this point, the chances of you making an honest effort to have a discussion about a complicated subject with me, instead of just trolling around for an opportunity to shout A-HA! at me in order to get some payback, seem pretty slim.

                  Art is the handmaid of human good.

                  by joe from Lowell on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 01:39:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I have never equated people who are (0+ / 0-)

              "anti-interventionists" with being pro-Assad. But them I have never argued for NATO intervention in Syria. I have presented the demand of the Syrian people, as represented in mass protests, for military intervention and I have laid out the facts as I see them. This is what these select few Kossack object to. They wish that I would write about Bahrain or just go away. They assume any exposition of the plight of the Syrian people is a call for intervention.

              But there are pro-Assad people, and all of them claim to be anti-interventionists, and they promote pro-Assad misinformation in the guise of "merely" being "anti-intervention" so the distinction becomes a difficult one.

              Remember history, Clay Claiborne, Director Vietnam: American Holocaust - narrated by Martin Sheen

              by Clay Claiborne on Tue Jul 31, 2012 at 02:10:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (151)
  • Community (76)
  • Bernie Sanders (50)
  • Elections (42)
  • 2016 (41)
  • Environment (34)
  • Hillary Clinton (33)
  • Climate Change (33)
  • Culture (32)
  • Civil Rights (29)
  • Republicans (28)
  • Science (28)
  • Media (27)
  • Barack Obama (24)
  • Law (23)
  • Labor (23)
  • Spam (21)
  • Education (19)
  • Trans-Pacific Partnership (19)
  • International (18)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site