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View Diary: Shooting at Sikh Temple in Wisconsin (281 comments)

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  •  Probably not. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JPax, Prachar, Bailey2001

    Most shooters are motivated by personal grievances and are known to their victims.  Let's not make rampant speculation about the identity/motivation of the shooter, OK?  Remember how that worked out for ABC with their false pinning of the shooting on a tea party person.

    •  This isn't ABC (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      poco, PSzymeczek

      and I'm not being paid to be right about anything, and at the very least this temple was targeted because of the color of the occupants. It strains credibility to think it wasn't.

      •  Why does it strain credibility? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JPax, Prachar

        Statistically speaking, you're dead wrong: the vast majority of shootings are perpetrated by a member of the same community as the victims, motivated by personal grievances unrelated to identity.  Until we have actual evidence saying otherwise, that is the most likely explanation.  But I don't know for sure, so I'm not going to speculate.  We should all do the same.

        And it doesn't matter whether or not you're being paid.  Irresponsible speculation meant to tar a particular group is still irresponsible, and could have unintended negative consequences on our community.

        •  BG, right, so often crime is within a group, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco

          in this case witnesses said early on it was "an outsider." I'm guessing the beards and turbans were as much a factor here as skin tone.  

          Anyhow CNN is showing police press conference at 4-30 EDT.

          "...it's difficult to imagine what else Republicans can do to drive women away in 2012, unless they decide to bring back witch-hanging. And I wouldn't put it past them." James Wolcott

          by Mayfly on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 01:20:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not saying it wasn't an outsider, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mayfly, Prachar

            I just think we should refrain from speculation as to motive until we have actual facts.

            Keep in mind, we decry the same behavior from the right when they immediately assume that violent attacks were perpetrated by Muslims.  In fact, I've read several already trying to blame Muslims for this incident.  And they could be right (after all, Muslims and Sikhs have a history of conflict).  But I would never try to act as that was the likely cause, absent any evidence supporting it.

            •  It wasn't me, although some idiot children here (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Boris Godunov, Prachar

              have suggested that my mention of Muslim-Sikh conflict as an example of a motive different from their preferred anti-republican talking point means I'm promoting the theory.

              -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

              by JPax on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 02:43:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Hair and beards can be shaved off. (0+ / 0-)

            If it's a shibboleth to grow hair and someone feels the need to remove themselves from a group, they may remove that badge of identification from themselves. We'll know more tomorrow morning when the police announce more information.

            -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

            by JPax on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 02:46:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  are you fucking serious? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poco

              a white guy with a shaved head might be a sikh who has shaved his head and beard?!

              •  Why do you hate white people, you fucking racist? (0+ / 0-)

                Why are you so intent to blame Caucasions for this? Have you seen a picture of the shooter? How do you know what he fucking looks like? Yeah, I heard some witnesses say he was white, and maybe he is, but we don't know yet. You think misidentification can't happen? you think all white people look alike and that white people can't tan as dark as central Asians? Why can't you wait for law enforcement to tell us the facts before starting your fucking race war?

                -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                by JPax on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 05:00:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sorry, I over-reacted, but you made me mad. (0+ / 0-)

                  I don't like being taken out of context, and I feel you guys are doing intentionally to piss me off. But my points stand. We don't know the facts yet.

                  I was supposed to be at the scene of a mass shooting a few years ago and missed it by chance. The shooter wasn't a terrorist, he was a messed up kid who went off his meds.

                  When you blame a whole group for the actions of one, it can lead to reprisals instead of law enforcement.

                  -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                  by JPax on Sun Aug 05, 2012 at 05:45:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  time to eat your words (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sethtriggs, poco
                  Kaleka was not at the temple at the time of the shooting, but helped police interview witnesses in the aftermath. He said members described the attacker as a bald, white man, dressed in a white T-shirt and black pants and with a 9/11 tattoo on one arm -- which "implies to me that there's some level of hate crime there."
                  the people who attacks sikhs in this country, post-9/11, are invariably white racists trying, in their pathetic ignorance, to kill muslims, because sikhs wear beards and turbans as part of their religious practice.

                  i am sorry if it upsets you that white racists commit hate crimes at great regularity in this country, but that's the way it is. any time a non-christian, non-white population is targeted in a massacre, the odds are that it was a white racist who did it. from the target, you can usually guess the perp, in specific cases such as this.

                  now america admittedly has lots of murders and massacres, and not all of them are race-based or committed by white men, but when the target is a gurdwara, and the reports are that a white guy with a shaved head was doing the shooting, it's not a mystery who did it and why. and it's not a hindu angry about indira gandhi or a sikh who has shaved his beard and head, and it's fucking absurd to frantically claim it might be, and throw a tantrum when you're called out on said absurdity.

                  and for the record, i'm a white guy.

                  •  Even a broken clock is right twice a day. (0+ / 0-)

                    You must be proud of yourself.

                    Doesn't mean it's appropriate to jump to conclusions. That's just common sense you should have learned in kindergarten. Remember the story about the boy who cried wolf? Even he was right once.

                    When I made my statements it was not known nor had I seen any statements to suggest it was a white person. I stated that all along and I was right, we wouldn't know until we received reports of it.

                    Last I read there was still no clear word on the motivation, although possible links to racists. Maybe that's changed. I've been trying to focus on something else for a while.

                    And for the record, I'm half-not-quite-white. I've received both anti-white and anti-ethnic anger.

                    -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                    by JPax on Mon Aug 06, 2012 at 12:53:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  no word on motivation? possible links to racists? (0+ / 0-)

                      the guy was covered in nazi tattoos and was in a white supremacist band, for crying out loud. this isn't rocket science.

                      •  I said I hadn't seen anything new. I'm avoiding it (0+ / 0-)

                        Which is why I'm not in any of those new diaries. I got mad and needed to cool off.

                        And what I said yesterday still stands in context of yesterday. As we learn more, we know more. I said it could be a white guy and a racist but that I wanted to wait to know for sure. Go back and check if you don't believe me. I know I said it somewhere, at least a couple of times.

                        -We need Healthcare Reform... but i'm selfish, I Need Healthcare reform-

                        by JPax on Mon Aug 06, 2012 at 02:20:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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