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View Diary: Bookflurries-Bookchat: Books Like Fine Wine (137 comments)

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  •  I love posts like that. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rimjob, cfk, Youffraita, Limelite

    There's something else in Cinderella that I always found interesting.  It's a real chick story.  Women fighting and picking on other women in ways that take some mind-warping for men to absorb.  In fact, as entertaining as it is, it's probably the one fairy tale that is the most female-centric in its design.

    I got into another lit feud this week in another diary, the one on objectification.  I started talking about fairy tales and mentioned how as you get into mythology, books like Bullfinch and how they are compiled, you find that in different cultures, the burden of passing on fairy tales is passed down by the men or the women and it affects the nature of the tales.  For instance, the Grimm's stories are collected from European fairy tales passed down from mothers to daughters.  Men didn't apparently have the same bedtime-tale-telling burdens as women, for whatever reason.  This affects the underlying symbology in some stories.  Cinderella is an obvious example of the former.  Male-tradition fairy tales, by contrast, often become RELIGION.

    •  Interesting...thanks! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rimjob, Dumbo, Youffraita

      My mother told me the story about the Selfish Giant by Wilde many times and my dad told me Tomb Thumb stories.

      Not sure how that has helped me in life...

      My mom's proverbs were more helpful.

      She told me not to stand on a train track and expect God to stop the train and that he gave us brains to know enough not to do that.  :)

      Join us at Bookflurries-Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

      by cfk on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 08:06:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My mom was into Jung back in the 60s. (4+ / 0-)

        She was a Jungian-groupie of sorts.  She and her friends would caravan around the country to listen to Alan Watts seminars and things like that.  I think I mentioned before about her Jungian analysis of Little Red Riding Hood that she burdened me with when I was a tot, where she explained what all the symbols meant in a way not age-appropriate.  That really stuck with me, I guess.

        When I was in sixth grade we were exposed to Greek and Norse myths, and I loved that.  The distinction between myth and fairy tale is... well, not much if any.  Fairy tales are meant for children, I suppose.

        •  I do love the Greek myths (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Youffraita

          scary as they are.  

          Join us at Bookflurries-Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

          by cfk on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 08:24:42 PM PDT

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        •  I don't think fairy tales were (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cfk, ferg, Monsieur Georges

          childish until they got dumbed-down in the Victorian era.

          Grimm and grimmer, the original ones.

          MY mother always said that the mythology was "too imaginative" for her.  Of course, she was brought up to believe in the Bible as literally true -- something even the preacher and his wife didn't believe, when I was a kid.

          Some people just don't understand analogy.  Or metaphor.

          To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

          by Youffraita on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 08:54:31 PM PDT

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          •  Myths are resistant to dumbing down. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cfk, Youffraita, Limelite

            They already are reduced to their elements.  All you can do is add ornamentation to them.  

            As Joseph Campbell put it, "A dream is a private myth; a myth is a public dream."  Because of that public dream nature, they pop up again and again in similar but recognizable forms.

    •  Men's Stories (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cfk, Monsieur Georges

      I did some research on Hungarian folktale traditions and it seems that men would tell stories at the blacksmith's and in the barracks as soldiers.  Those were the places for male to male storytelling.  

      In Hungary there was also the spinning room where stories were exchanged among men and women as the women spun on winter nights.  It was also a place where the young ones courted.  Kodaly wrote an opera called "The Spinning Room" which is worth a listen.

      I believe there is also a male tradition of storytelling in public marketplaces and cafes but haven't examined that enough.  Perhaps that is more an Eastern tradition than a Western one.

      One well known source of "fairy tale" fodder is the Panchatantra from India, a complex knot of nested stories, mostly animal fables, Aesop on steroids.  Lots of juice there.

      Many of these fairy and folktales are simple motifs combined in a variety of different ways to produce new variations on old themes.  It is a little like the use of set-pieces and epithets as aide de memoir as postulated by Alfred Lord in The Singer of Tales.  Stith Thompson and his work with parsing folktale plots into numbered themes is also part of this tradition.  I don't know if there are only The Seven Basic Plots as the recent book puts it but I do know that there is one we all share:  we are born, we live, we die.

      Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

      by gmoke on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 10:37:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kaku (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Limelite

        in Physics of the Future has been talking about humans someday not dying or living 500 years and it is very scary stuff.

        Join us at Bookflurries-Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

        by cfk on Wed Aug 15, 2012 at 10:42:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Practical Immortality (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cfk

          One day, I happened to be walking through the Infinite Corridor of MIT with Marvin Minsky on one side and Eric Drexler on the other.  I asked them what they'd say if they had five minutes on nation-wide TV.  Drexler demurred but Minsky said he'd like to tell people about practical immortality, the ability to live as long as you wanted with diamond tendons and carbon fiber muscles, to be able to spend as much time as you wanted satisfying your curiosity and discovering new things.

          My stomach dropped away from me and I felt real disgust.  My reaction to Minsky's immortality was that this was his response to fear.  I can't imagine anything that would freeze the world in a contorted and constricted way more than practical immortality.  Ray Kurzweil is doing his best now to make it happen as are many Extropians.  Perhaps they'll do it but it will be a disaster.  The first people to become immortal will be the worst ones, the richest.  Imagine the Koch Bros as immortals, as they, I suspect, already do. Not a pretty picture.  Who would have babies in a world of immortality?  Where would new thoughts and ideas come from?  What would be the pace of change?

          When my father was dying, he looked at death as an adventure.  He wasn't in pain and had lived a good eighty plus years.  He'd always been a traveler and was excited by the idea of what this next, last journey would be.  "What was it going to be like?" he wanted to know.  I think death is a part of life, a necessity and hope that I will have my father's adventurous attitude when I come face to face with the Reaper.  I hope I'll be like ripe wheat.

          Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

          by gmoke on Fri Aug 17, 2012 at 09:51:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with you 100% (0+ / 0-)

            I hadn't thought of this:

            Imagine the Koch Bros as immortals, as they, I suspect, already do. Not a pretty picture.
            That is even scarier.

            Join us at Bookflurries-Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

            by cfk on Sat Aug 18, 2012 at 06:55:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bug Jack Barron (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cfk

              Norman Spinrad's sf book about one attempt to achieve practical immortality.  It is also about TV and the media culture.  Costa-Gavras once optioned it for a movie but it never happened.

              Solar is civil defense. Video of my small scale solar experiments at solarray.

              by gmoke on Sun Aug 19, 2012 at 11:58:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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