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View Diary: UK Poising to Arrest Assange is Completely Contrary to Asylum & Non-Refoulement (137 comments)

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  •  deben, I don't think CrazyH was advocating at all (1+ / 0-)
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    regarding Manning, just stating the likely outcome of the Manning court martial. Anyone who thinks that Manning will not spend the next 30 years in military prison is delusional. While the term "rot" was extreme it is a commonly used term when people face very long prison sentences and does not infer that they would be malnourished to the point where the prisoner would actually rot away.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 10:36:08 AM PDT

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    •  You're Correct (1+ / 0-)
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      If you want to know the likely fate of Manning, it's the same fate as Aldrich Aimes, who's in the high-security pen in Allenwood, PA.  He's allowed few visitors due to the information he still holds in his head.  Same with Robert Hanssen.  He gets a few visitors, but once you show that you cannot be trusted to keep the government's secret information, well, become a national security risk.  

      Honestly, I'm not sure why this doesn't make sense to folks - perhaps because we on the Left are naturally anti-establishment.  But from what we know about Manning and Assange, they're not leftist heroes.  Manning did what he did to try to injure the government and, specifically, this sitting president.  And Assange did what he did because he admittedly hates the United States and wanted to cause us harm.  

      My personal belief is, we, on the Left, shouldn't allow that to stand.  We should be willing to play on a level playing field and to act as fair players - even, when, sometimes people don't treat us fairly.  We cannot become the thing we hate.  

      The people whose lives were injured and exposed by Wikileaks are good people doing their jobs.  They're career civil servants - not partisan politicians - people like you and me with families to feed.  Manning and Assange exposed them, their duty station, their work, and their words without ever considering how it might injure those people, cause harm to them, and make them targets of our enemies, both foreign and domestic.  

      To me, it's just anti-government hatred that motivates those who support Assange.  His supporters have forgotten that, for all its faults, our government is "people, my friend."  

      No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. - Edward R. Murrow

      by CrazyHorse on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 10:46:55 AM PDT

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      •  How did you feel about Ellsberg? (1+ / 0-)
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        From my experience of over 40 years - and I served in the military and grew up on military bases - the people who run the military/security/industrial complex are neither trustworthy nor friends of most people in the world, including Americans.

        Many, many more innocent people have suffered and died as a result of American aggression, duplicity, and greed over the past half century than have allegedly been harmed by wikileaks.

        The government is indeed people, many good people. Down the darker corridors, however, where citizens are not welcome and the billions are squandered, dwell some really evil motherfuckers.

        "I don't try to describe the future. I try to prevent it." - Ray Bradbury

        by chuckvw on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 12:38:12 PM PDT

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      •  Good grief (0+ / 0-)
        Manning did what he did to try to injure the government and, specifically, this sitting president.
        So we're having a proxy pie fight about Obama?  Is that a reason why Manning and Assange have already been tried and sentenced by some on this site?  Because they're not Obama supporters?

        Justice appears not to be blind here.

        Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

        by deben on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 02:26:48 PM PDT

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    •  CrazyHorse needs some new friends (0+ / 0-)

      Having you, VClib, agreeing with him on an issue like this is pretty much the kiss of death.  "Likely outcome," my rear end.  You strike me as the kind of person who would always show up to defend cops with clubs.  Like the ones who beat OWS protesters for breaking local ordinances such as park curfews.  Students and mothers beaten for camping in public parks, for instance.

      Bradley Manning has not been tried and has already been subjected to punishing torture.  Mr. Assange has every reason to believe he would receive the same treatment.  That just gives you a special kind of thrill that the rest of us simply can't understand, doesn't it, VClib?

      Am I wrong?

      Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

      by deben on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 02:18:58 PM PDT

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      •  deben - what's with the personal attack? (0+ / 0-)

        I was just responding to the comment that wanting someone to "rot" was inhumane. As CrazyHorse wrote in his answer to my comment he doesn't want Manning to rot, and neither do I.  My comment on Manning's fate was based on my understanding of military court martial in the US Army and the near certainty that he will be convicted and sentenced to a very long term, possibly life. I expressed no opinion about Manning's guilt or innocence.  

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 02:59:08 PM PDT

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        •  You don't want Manning to "rot," (0+ / 0-)

          so you say.  CrazyHorse amended his definition downthread of "rot" to, uh, a

          metaphor for "never getting out of prison."
          which ignores the torture he's already endured, btw.  This discussion seems to involve tough-guy gangster-movie talk, which it turns out is only metaphoric for something else, and solitary confinement of the accused for over a year is never mentioned.  How poetical.

          Less like a dispassionate authority on US Army court martial proceedings; more like an arm-chair prosecutor, VClib.  Know thyself.

          Solitary Confinement: It has been widely documented that solitary confinement is a cruel practice which causes permanent psychological damage to those who have been treated in that manner. Solitary confinement alone, even in the absence of brutality can cause emotional damage, hallucinations, delusions, depersonalisation and declines mental functioning. It has also been documented that the circumstances surrounding the detention has a significant impact on the psychological damage experienced by the detainee, such as not knowing why they are being detained in such a way which is common in Guantanamo. Solitary confinement is banned under Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions as it amounts to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

          When something like this is done to our soldiers by foreign governments or terrorists, we raise hell.  When done by our own government to one of our own soldiers, someone will always come forward to sanction the whole proceeding, this time by citing a special "understanding" of a US Army court martial.  Everyone who disagrees is "delusional," as you've called us.  VClib, "what's with the personal attack?"

          Sunday mornings are more beautiful without Meet the Press.

          by deben on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 03:53:21 PM PDT

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          •  deben - my comment that included the term (0+ / 0-)

            "delusional" was in regards to my view that Manning will be convicted and sentenced to a long term at his court martial. Military courts and juries are even more insulated from public opinion than civilian courts. I am not a lawyer or expert on the UCMJ or court martial procedure, although I have served on a court martial jury. Manning does have five levels of appeal after his court martial, including the POTUS and the Supreme Court, and I think it is likely that his case will be pursued through all levels of appeal. At one of those appeals his treatment when he was in Quantico may be considered. At present the DoD does not consider solitary confinement as torture, and it has not been ruled as torture by the SCOTUS, or any state supreme court, to the best of my knowledge.

            I think it is appropriate for people to object to Manning's treatment, advocate that he have a fair trial and support him and his defense. I don't know if he is guilty or innocent because I have not seen any of the evidence, but if he did in fact release thousands of classified documents he should be kept in prison for a very long time. We can't have PFCs making their own decisions on what material should be unclassified. Had Manning released only the helicopter attack I think he would have a legitimate whistleblower defense, but if he did release thousands of classified documents I don't think he can legitimately claim whistleblower status.  

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu Aug 16, 2012 at 04:40:34 PM PDT

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