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View Diary: Oxymorons United (16 comments)

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  •  Until modern times (0+ / 0-)

    legal slavery was not an aberration, it was common.

    •  Involutary servitude is still legal (0+ / 0-)

      as punishment for crime or to work off a debt.  Imposing it on innocents who had been captured for sale and then making it heritable from generation to generation was, I think, a unique contribution to jurisprudence by the EuroAmericans. Certainly that's what the Africans argued in court when they challenged the enslavement of their children.

      I may not have all the history straight, but here's a good source.

      Willard's forte = "catch 'n' cage". He's not into "catch and release."

      by hannah on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 07:23:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Look at ancient history (0+ / 0-)

        It has been estimated that slave population of ancient Greece was 75%. Slavery built the ancient world.

        •  That humans enslaved their own kind (0+ / 0-)

          in ancient times is really irrelevant to its formalization in a society that's overtly committed to human rights and engages in linguistic subterfuge to engage in behavior it has not only ostensibly refuted, but whose refutation proclaims some elevated ethical status.
          The "land of liberty" was built on legal slavery and in the present day, the majority of the population is being subjugated under cover of the rule of law and behind the shield of money.

          That humans behaved worse at some other time is not an excuse for them behaving badly now. After all, progress is measured by an increased respect for all living things.

          Willard's forte = "catch 'n' cage". He's not into "catch and release."

          by hannah on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 08:54:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The way you simplify it, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            with that one sweeping sentence provoked the same reaction in me as in Angela.  Dismissing the institution of slavery in ancient times is akin to dismissing the fundamentals of Athenian democracy on the influence of western, democratic thought in general.

            "I'm not writing to make conservatives happy. I want them to hate my opinions. I'm not interested in debating them. I want to stop them." - Steve Gilliard

            by grog on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 09:00:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So, it's my fault you were provoked. (0+ / 0-)

              Making slaves out of one's own kind is an "improvement" over killing them outright in order to take whatever assets attracted the plunderer.
              Perhaps interning millions of Iraqis while their homes were bombed was a kinder/gentler alternative to carpet bombing civilian populations and destroying their villages to save them.  After all, the survivors are able to rebuild.  The dead are just dead and, whatever culture they had, died with them.
              When a New World culture smashes the cradle of civilization to smithereens in the name of democracy, democracy has been defiled.  When the citizens of Fallujah are subject to iris scans in order to go in and out of their city, democracy has ceased to exist. Similarly, when persons wishing to be transported on a plane are subjected to assault, having their privates inspected with machines and their properties searched, that's not liberty.

              I am not quite sure why some descendants of slaves are determined that their status as special needs to be maintained.
              "separate but equal" was formulation championed by the plaintiff in Plessy v. Ferguson.  The eventual determination that "separate" is inherently unequal was also in response to the plaintiffs in Brown v. Board of Education, which not only meant that the whole population living under segregation was subject to unequal treatment but, and this was probably not noticed, making the treatment equal provided no guarantee as regards quality.
              Indeed, if the educational systems in the whole country are to be objectively considered, it's as if somebody had decided, " if they want to be equal, let them be equally deprived."

              After all, "no free lunch" is just shorthand for "those who don't work can starve."  And now that the whole society is hooked on money, it's easy to make sure that's how it works.  Which is why Occupy Wall Street giving out free food had to be stopped and why school lunches and food stamps are under attack.  If people can't be threatened with starvation, how can they be made to work now that the chains and whips have been outlawed?

              Willard's forte = "catch 'n' cage". He's not into "catch and release."

              by hannah on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:05:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hannah (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                Yes, it is your fault that  grog was provoked because you wrote a Diary.

                If you didn't intend provoking a response, then why bother?

                Having been blessed with kossacks willing to take the time and trouble to debate these matters, getting "snippy" with them will not help the debate go forward.

                It's a matter for you, but folk won't debate with you if you do that to them.

                just my 2c

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                by twigg on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 10:26:35 AM PDT

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                •  I am not interested in debate. (0+ / 0-)

                  I am interested in providing a new perspective for people to consider.
                  Self-directed individuals resist giving in to prompts. Instinct-driven people are responsive either to some outside influence or to hormonal signals of which they are unaware.

                  Note that it is now seven hours since I put up the post and my patience is running short.

                  I responded to the assertions about slavery because some people seem to think the issue is just about their ancestors and them and it's my considered opinion that the effect and residual echo of that pernicious institution is much more wide ranging and pervasive.
                  That the Europeans, specifically the Dutch and Spanish and Portuguese brought to the New World the systematic enslavement of human beings is not the same as a hierarchical culture evolving in situ, especially since the American myth is all about finding religious freedom and championing human rights.

                  Moreover, it is still a current issue since children are legally considered the property of their parents and the U.S., alone along with Somalia, has refused to ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Nattering about ancestors is pretty useless when children are being abused under our noses, thousands run away from abusive homes every year and even our soldiers are committing suicide a rate of one a day. We are fixated on death and capital punishment, even as abuse is ignored in the law, unless there's permanent damage.  Which is why our "interrogators" were taught to torture without leaving any marks.

                  Willard's forte = "catch 'n' cage". He's not into "catch and release."

                  by hannah on Mon Aug 20, 2012 at 12:17:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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