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View Diary: Can the Sioux hold off the vampires? Can we help them? (65 comments)

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  •  This explains why the economies of Islamic (0+ / 0-)

    countries are so robust and their peoples so wealthy, healthy and wise.

    Where are we, now that we need us most?

    by Frank Knarf on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 10:48:06 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Does it now? (0+ / 0-)

      Are you being sarcastic and insulting Muslims here? Do you know anything about Muslim banking and lending practices? Just trying to get in a "Screw you buddy, capitalism ROCKS! WOOOO!"

      I'm a little confused as to your motivations.

      •  Sarcasm, certainly. Directed at your oddly (0+ / 0-)

        cramped view of the term "capitalism".

        As for Islamic banking, some of the contortions used to avoid the appearance of usury remind me of how observant Jews manage sabbath restrictions, e.g. elevators that stop at every floor so one does not have to push a button.

        Where are we, now that we need us most?

        by Frank Knarf on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 11:59:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  True, the contortions are amusing (0+ / 0-)

          But the need to go through those contortions limits the amount of profit the average Muslim can take without social ostracism. As a result, Muslims do not revere valueless rent-seeking in the same way we do.

          My "cramped" view of capitalism is based on the definition of the word. We have other words for other parts of our economic system, such as "free market," there is no need to wrap it all up in a pretty package and call that package "capitalism." To do so legitimizes the rent-seeking vampires who do nothing to improve society. And that, of course, is their aim, and why they want you to conflate our economic system with "capitalism."

          •  I don't think Marx, Weber, Keynes and all the rest (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Fiona West

            who wanted to discuss the organization of production, or the nature of social relations, or attitudes about progress and stability were trying to obfuscate the nature or meaning of capitalism.

            Where are we, now that we need us most?

            by Frank Knarf on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 01:14:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Please be more clear (0+ / 0-)

              You seem to be saying that my analysis of capitalism runs counter to what, specifically, "Marx, Weber, Keynes and all the rest" say about capitalism. I had no idea that opinion on the subject was so united. Please, do tell, how exactly my opinions differ from "all the rest."

              I find it odd that you can so easily name those who disagree with me (which is evidently everyone!) yet you can not describe how they disagree. I think that is simply THE most empty appeal to authority I have yet witnessed, and I've been online since the '80s.

              •  To clarify, there is obviously a great deal of (0+ / 0-)

                variety in the views of those I mentioned and those many others I alluded to, the point being that none of them tried to narrow the definition to a single aspect of financial practice, as you seem to advocate.  But perhaps I have not understood your position.

                I don't understand why you would construe this as an appeal to authority.  Is it really necessary to cite references to all of the notable commentaries on capitalism over the past two centuries in order to point out how narrow your particular definition is by contrast?

                Where are we, now that we need us most?

                by Frank Knarf on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 02:33:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Dude, just naming a bunch of economists (0+ / 0-)

                  Without context, is not an argument. Here, let me demonstrate with physicists:

                  "Einstein, Hawking, Feynman and all the rest would disagree."

                  Disagree with WHAT?!? I've said absolutely nothing, made no point, advanced no thesis. I've just invoked context-free the names of a bunch of experts in the field. Perhaps I am thinking someone who is a moron would see those names and go "OOOh, a bunch of experts in the field agree with him and disagree with that other guy. The other guy must be wrong!"

                  Uh, wrong about WHAT though?!?

                  See, you brought up those names as an appeal to authority. You claimed they all would disagree with me, without saying how. I can't think of a more clear-cut, textbook example of appeal to authority.

                  Yes, it is necessary, if you are trying to make an argument, to actually make an argument. I can't believe I am actually having to explain this to a presumably full grown adult human.

                  •  Sigh, I give up. You are correct, capitalism is (0+ / 0-)

                    only about lending money at interest.  It has nothing to do with the structure of production, ownership of various asset classes, social relations and class behavior, cultural attitudes concerning progress, or anything else.  Just usury.  Anyone who takes the time to study economics, history, philosophy and sociology must agree.

                    All that stuff that Marx and Engels and Weber and Keynes and Galbraith and all those other names I used to use in my pathetic appeals to authority had to say is utter BS.

                    Where are we, now that we need us most?

                    by Frank Knarf on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 03:15:23 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Seth, I hrd to hide this thread (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                chimpy

                this is not appropriate to threadjack despite the title in this fund raising diary, I can't forward this to organizations that can and do help with this kind of screed in it, however I may or may not agree with you.

                Like it or not, it's not helpful to bag on people with lots of money to donate ...the reality today.

                Sorry...I hope that whoever recced your comment withdraws them and we can get enough, just enough hr's to hide the thread.

                This machine kills Fascists.

                by KenBee on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 02:50:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wait, WHAT? (0+ / 0-)

                  That is so seriously against site rules, I don't even know what to say.

                  And where, exactly, am I bagging on "people with lots of money to donate?!?"

                  And how is this a "screed?" I am having a civil conversation!

                  And who appointed you thread police?

                  •  Margin racing (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    KenBee

                    Getting a little narrow here at the right margin, but in short: It started relatively civilly, if we don't count the accusation of all those with investment income of being reanimated corpses who hunt living humans for their blood. I apologize to the community for encouraging further discussion of the matter. But then you and Knarf got into a pointless and counterproductive squabble about a topic better resolved elsewhere. Some would like to forward a link of this story to friends, but would be embarrassed to have them come in and find us bickering about the nature of capitalism and religion's relation to banking. Finally you say "I don't even know what to say," but continue.

                    Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

                    by chimpy on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 03:12:20 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Okay... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      chimpy

                      But HRs are not to be used to censor ideas one finds inconvenient. A quick request by the diary's author would have been enough to put a stop to my participation, I can see how this looks like a threadjack even though I did not mean it to be. And I did not mean to characterize all those with investment income as vampires, only those who do not contribute in any other way. Funny, I thought a robust discussion of ideas was a hallmark of progressive thought.

                      •  One HR won't have any effect (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        KenBee

                        So, don't worry about that. But, once you've gone a few replies into an off-topic comment thread, then it's usually worth starting a new diary on the topic. Having a robust discussion means being able to find the discussion you're looking for, and lots of people came here for something besides a lesson on capitalism, banking, Islam or comment etiquette.

                        Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

                        by chimpy on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 03:24:40 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Noted, and thanks for explaining politely (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KenBee, chimpy

                          I wasn't even thinking about the fundraising aspect and for that I apologize. I just saw the vampires comment and felt the need to add my two cents. I figure somebody needs to represent the rabid anti-capitalists, if only for the Overton Window effect.

                      •  didn't see it until way too late (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        chimpy

                        but your first comment was already at the top.. ...this was an action diary Seth, not someplace for us to debate all this...not speaking for Fiona.

                        I can't forward the diary to the rich foundation I am distantly related too.
                        I'll copy and paste the diary and a couple of comments.

                        hiding the thread won't hurt you at all.

                        write a diary on the topic, obviously people have things to say about it.

                        who appointed me diary police? really?
                        kos did.
                        as are you.

                        This machine kills Fascists.

                        by KenBee on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 03:34:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  We're cool, sorry for the threadjack (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          chimpy, KenBee

                          It wasn't intentional. I'll try to be more sensitive to context in the future.

                        •  I'm delighted you want to send the (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KenBee, chimpy

                          diary to your distant relatives.  It's good to cast a wide net!

                          Copy and pasting the diary, and some comments if you wish, sounds like a great way to go.

                          There's also MB's diary, linked to in mine just after the break.  It has a calmer tone and no vampires, if that seems better.  :)

                          --------------------- “These are troubling times. Corporation are treated like people. People are treated like things. …And if we ever needed to vote, we sure do need to vote now.” -- Rev. Dr. William J. Barber

                          by Fiona West on Wed Aug 22, 2012 at 10:11:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

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