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View Diary: IMF & Iceland: If this isn't true, I want to know, because if it IS true I want to bathe in it! (147 comments)

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  •  China (20+ / 0-)

    The US bondholders are largely foreign: China, Japan and the rest of the world that's bought our $TRILLIONS of Treasury bonds. Plus all the foreign banks that AIG and the rest owed money to that our taxpayers paid off (by selling them more Treasury bonds).

    Yes, lots of Treasuries are owned by 1%ers who are citizens. But they're nearly as foreign as a Cayman Islands PO box.

    If the Democratic Congress had passed laws nullifying most Credit Default Swaps in 2009 and Obama signed them, we could have let lots of mortgages, credit cards and car loans default without the apocalypse these CDSes had set up. We wouldn't have substituted those bad debts with $9 TRILLION in Treasuries we owe to mostly foreigners. Social Security's share of the Treasury debt is in different instruments than foreign bondholders own, so we could have selectively transferred even bad Treasury debts to "designated failures", instead of the opposite.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 05:13:16 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  China holds about 6% of our debt (6+ / 0-)

      A little more than $1T our of ~$16T. Japan holds a similar amount.

      Far more is held in the US, by the Federal government itself, state and local governments, pension funds, mutual funds, etc.


    •  No, they are not. American Filthy Rich..... (12+ / 0-)

      .... own the bulk of our debt.

      the top 1% holds ~ $7-8 Trillion of the national debt. Social Security owns ~$3 Trillion. The Chinese are only holding around $1 Trillion.

      How do you think the whole scam of the Bush tax cuts worked.

      Do NOT collect the $5 Trillion owed by the Filthy Rich, instead give them a tax cut letting them hold on to it. Driving our government into deficit, requiring borrowing.... then LOAN the government the monies that they should have paid as taxes in the first place.

      They get to keep the principle AND make interest income in the $100's of billions, loaning it to fund the artificial deficit.

      It amounts to a massive transfer of wealth from the people directly to the bank accounts of the Filthy Rich... in the $Trillions.

      Stockman has said that we need to hit the Filthy Rich with a one time Surtax to get this money back... he says $5 Trillion, I say $12 Trillion and if there is ONE COMPLAINT.... make it $22 Trillion, or 50% of the assets of the top 10%.

      We could then pay off the debt, and fix our entire infrastructure, vastly improve that infrastructure, and fund things like manned trips to Mars, converting electric production to solar, and most transportation to electric.

      etc, etc.

      •  you do realize the entire (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Seneca Doane

        united state GDP is only about 15 trillion.

        how exactly can you threaten a one time surcharge of 22 trillion from just the top 10% when it's statistically impossible.

        •  You missed the word "assets". (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          All Cretans are sockpuppets. -- Epimenides the Cretan

          by JesseCW on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:02:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK, how much "assets" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            do you think the top 10% have?

            lets take an amazingly high number, 100 trillion (it's not that high).

             threaten a one time surchage of 22% of everything they own? one you get back the top 2-4% these are not people who are rMoneys. these are middle management, people who have mortgages and car payments and student loans still.

            it's just a ridiculous thing to even say out loud, let along consider a reasonable proposal.

            •  Please research. Just a little. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              codairem, blueoasis

              The top 1% holds 33+% of all the wealth in the US.  That's 2007, it's higher now.

              Total assets of the US Economy = 188 trillion.  That's 2009.

              All Cretans are sockpuppets. -- Epimenides the Cretan

              by JesseCW on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 11:52:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you fogot to subtract debts (0+ / 0-)

                and even then - that includes homes, farms, cars, etc that many of those families had to save and pay for... not exactly liquid assets.

                you're telling me a family making 100k a year (easily in the top 10%) is going to be forced to find 5-10k in cash or be forced to sell their home?

                I'm nowhere near rich, but if you're not including debts I guess I might be in the top 10% due to just buying a home for me and my fiance. i would actively fight any proposal that included me being forced to sell me home and any candidate who supported such a proposal.

                if you said you want to go to clinton tax rates for everyone, or even just the top tax group, and limit all of that money to pay off debts and only to pay off debts, that's a reasonable thing.

                but to simply say anything with anything of value, sell it off now to pay off a massive tax, or we're keep increasing the amount you have to pay, is just plain mean.

                f that.

                •  No. I didn't forget to subtract anything. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mkor7, codairem, TimmyB, blueoasis

                  That's total assets.

                  That's the total net worth of the 1%.

                  I don't know why you're going on and on about the problems of poor lil' rich kids, and pretending rich people aren't rich.

                  I don't know what purpose that serves.

                  I understand that you and I aren't part of the same social class and aren't on the same side in this war.

                  Do you?

                  All Cretans are sockpuppets. -- Epimenides the Cretan

                  by JesseCW on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 12:23:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Frank Knarf

                    first off - you don't seem to understant an asset has no value unless someone is willing to buy it. therefore under your "rich and some middle class people should sell their assets to pay off the debt" plan the total $ amount of US assets decreases drastically because no one will want to buy it out of fear.

                    wtf are you talking about poor lil old rich people? are you talking about those who owe 200k on their homes and 40k on their educations and 15k on their cars while making 50k a year (100k if the wife is lucky enough to have a job?) are those the rich people you want to sell everything? those are the people you want to put on the street? cause that is what your plan would do?

                    are my grandparents who have worked a farm for the last 60 years (after getting it from their parents etc) rich? they're not mega farmers, they don't have a bank account big enough to buy a new car let alone pay off their debts or improve on their 2 bedroom self built home.  but i guess as part of your "war" you'd say they should sell their assets (to who, i don't know, cause everyone with money to buy is going to be doing the same thing) to pay an extortion tax. and yes, it's extortion when you say agree to this now or we'll double it. I guess my grandparents should just sell everything they have because you're angry they're in the top 10%.

                    it serves the purpose that just because you consider someone to be better off than you, it doesn't mean they have a lot, and should be punished because you're angry.  there is a difference between leveling the playing field, and the destruction of 10% of the country simply because you want revenge for something 99.999% of them didn't do.

                    the fact is this plan is about as well thought through as mcdonalds having a healthy kids meal that includes french fries.

                    •  If you want to call rich people "middle class", (4+ / 0-)

                      that's your business.

                      But it makes it really really hard to have a conversation with you.

                      Those who have property got it under a morally bankrupt system of organized theft and exploitation by force.  They don't have a right to it.

                      The only reason the rest of us should refrain from expropriating all of it is to minimize disruption.

                      Every spoiled rich kid I've ever met has 1) A sob story 2) A refrain about how they're not really rich.

                      The only thing worse that a run of the mill pay for play pro-war hack is one who pretends to detest war to build credibility.

                      by JesseCW on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 02:06:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  really? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Frank Knarf

                        "Those who have property got it under a morally bankrupt system of organized theft and exploitation by force.  They don't have a right to it."

                        no one forced the person who owned my home before me to sell, she decided to. no one forced her to sell to me, she decided to. no one forced the homebuilder to build the home for her 40 years ago either. no one forced the farmer to sell to the developer, no one forced the farmer to buy the land in the first place.

                        you're going to argue everyone who owns property got it illegally and has no right to it, despite paying for it?

                        you're telling me every person who got a mortgage, paid it for 15-30 years dilligently and now legally owns the property should just have it taken from them?

                        if you want property, go out and get it. I'm working my ass off every day of the week and so is my fiance so we can afford our little bit of america. so yes, i have a legal, moral, and every other kind of right to it. and I'm sorry you think you deserve it for simply being able to post on the internet.

                        you're off the deep end pal, time to take a deep breath.

                    •  Actually, the core ASSET we are after is... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Seneca Doane

                      The $7-8 Trillion in treasury bonds held by the Filthy Rich (tm) who are in the upper ends of the top ONE PERCENT.

                      You understand that IS the National Debt, and by simply VOIDING those bonds held by those being hit by the surtax, we get most of the job done.

                      Personally, I'd want to go beyond what David Stockman has called for because I think the players in this mass theft need to be punished. To do so in a way that can fund massive stimulus programs to get the economy working again.

                      Remember, the scam was a TAX CUT.

                      People like your grandparents, with large assets but lower income would be unaffected. If they weren't making $10's millions in net income, they weren't benefiting from the theft.

                      However, if they were benefiting from the theft, then yes, they need to pay just like the Koch Bros and the Walton family have to pay. I don't care whose gamma and gammpa they are.

            •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wu ming

              None of the people we are talking about have mortgages and kids college to pay for.... unless you mean the mortgage on their 10th vacation home, or giant yatch-it.

              Seriously, someone with $10 million gets hit for $2 million, still has $8 million. I think he can still feed the kids.

              Someone with $50 billion pays $10 billion, still has $40 billion.

              Sorry, I don't see the pain.

              But make no mistake, if the trend... that has continued unabated for 30 years... continues unabated, the people who come for the surtax down the road will probably be including a free ride in a wood chipper, which is cheaper than building guillotines.


        •  ASSETS. The top 10% hold $44 TRILLION (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Seneca Doane, blueoasis, wu ming

          In assets. A surtax on their assets in total for the money they STOLE from the nation in this tax cut scam, plus all the interest paid on the stolen money they loaned the treasury, plus interest on all of that.

          The US is estimated to be worth $58 Trillion, $44 Trillion of which is held by the top 10%, the other 280 MILLION people have a net worth of $14 Trillion.

      •  Yes They Are (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        codairem, Seneca Doane, blueoasis

        As I pointed out, America owes foreigners over $10 TRILLION in debts.

        Americans hold more debt to ourselves. But $10T is a vast amount of debt to cancel, before starting on ourselves.

        Yes, we should tax the rich Americans (now and going forward) to pay off the debts (that they caused) instead of cancelling them. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about American debt owed foreigners, like Iceland let collapse, and America has plenty if we wanted to go that route.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Thu Aug 23, 2012 at 03:48:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Holders of TREASURY SECURITIES (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Seneca Doane

          is all that matters. The rest is private business.

          •  The Treasury Says What's Treasuries (0+ / 0-)

            Most of the Treasuries were private business the day before the Federal government said it wasn't. All the debt matters, and all the debt was fungible in 2009.

            Why should the banks' debts on mortgages (for example) get written off or bought off, but the homeowners' debts on mortgages cannot be?

            Besides, even if your (bankers' dream) policy were applied, without touching the debts to Americans (like to Social Security etc), the $4.3T Treasuries owed to foreigners is plenty to work with here.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

            by DocGonzo on Fri Aug 24, 2012 at 04:38:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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