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View Diary: Bush Shits On FDR (184 comments)

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  •  Not to shit on the Brits (none)
    But it's worth mentioning that, if Churchill hadn't fought Overlord so hard, the Western Allies might've liberated Europe much earlier and prevented much of the Soviet takeover of Eastern Europe simply by getting there first. But Churchill had his reasons to oppose Overlord; the English had already gone through a bloody continental war against the Germans and were trying to avoid another one.

    For all of Bush's shit about Yalta, I'd love to hear what he would've done differently. FDR made some pretty damn good decisions under the circumstances that proved incredibly far-sighted in the end.

    "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

    by vawolf on Sat May 07, 2005 at 10:40:25 PM PDT

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    •  Well, I'm not totally convinced... (none)
      ...that FDR really felt like pushing that landing either. He was happy to let Stalin make the brunt of the sacrifice in taking down the Nazis and then have the US come in towards the end, finish the job, grab the Rhine River basin. FDR always made his war plans with at least one eye towards the postwar settlement.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Sat May 07, 2005 at 10:51:12 PM PDT

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      •  But (none)
        He also couldn 't delay a second front in Europe so long that Stalin might be seriously tempted to make a separate peace with Hitler. This is one reason the Americans kept pushing for Overlord sooner rather than later: to keep Stalin in the alliance and to make sure helped with the Japanese when the time came.

        "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."

        by vawolf on Sun May 08, 2005 at 12:46:59 AM PDT

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    •  I don't buy that (4.00)
      Yes, there was a lot of hesitancy, don't forget Overlord was going to require just about every man England had-- Churchill was betting the house. And the Alliance was no where near set in stone.

      Beyond that, Overlord was a monumental operation. It required an insane amount of ships, planes, steel, and petroleum. Much of that wasn't available any earlier than 1944. Entire weapons systems were designed for the battle. Stephen Ambrose wrote that the triple white stripes identifying allied aircraft required all the white paint in England.

      Timing was another factor. The invasion couldn't take place too early in the spring because of the soft ground. It couldn't take place too far into summer if they were to break out of Normandy before winter. In short, the Allies had a window of a few months each year to launch the invasion. To do so in 1943 before forces were ready would have been a disaster-- a repeat of Dieppe. There is no way Churchill could allow a repeat of that Canadian slaughter.

      Somewhere around 2001, Mr. Spock grew a beard.

      by Olds88 on Sat May 07, 2005 at 11:31:58 PM PDT

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      •  The fact remains. Allies did nothing (none)
        until the Soviets stopped the Germans at Stalingrad.

        At least 60% of all German war material and troops was directed at the USSR.

        The greatest tank battles, the largest city sieges, all took place between the USSR and Germany.

        •  The Allies did nothing ... (none)
          Yup. Sat on their asses until June 1944, laughing at the gullible Russians for doing all the work.

          There were a few minor operations in North Africa, Italy and that little body of water known as the Pacific Ocean, but that didn't amount to much.

          America: It's a good IDEA for a country ...

          by Tony Seybert on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:56:05 AM PDT

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          •  Not to mention (none)
            Destroying the U-Boat threat in the Atlantic, bombing German infrastructure, and achieving air superiority over the north of France.

            And of course, building a few ships and boats to actually carry and invasion force.

            Somewhere around 2001, Mr. Spock grew a beard.

            by Olds88 on Sun May 08, 2005 at 12:33:53 PM PDT

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            •  And, Lend-Lease (none)
              We sent an awful lot of material to the Soviet Union.  The Factories of Democracy...

              Happy little moron, lucky little man. I wish I was a moron, my God, perhaps I am! -- Spike Milligan

              by polecat on Sun May 08, 2005 at 01:18:07 PM PDT

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        •  The western allies did not have the (none)
          ability to do much against Germany at the time of Stalingrad.  Remember that as late as 1940 Sweden had a larger army that the US.  It wasn't until '44 that we were ready to challenge the Wermaught on its home turf.

          ownership society - you are on your own

          by Sam I Am on Sun May 08, 2005 at 09:13:30 AM PDT

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        •  Hmmm (none)
          Guess my dad and uncle (RCAF) were just flying pleasure aircraft over Europe between 1941 and 1944.  Well, my uncle quit in '42 after being shot down and killed - must have been a misunderstanding of some sort.

          "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

          by fishhead on Sun May 08, 2005 at 02:55:32 PM PDT

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