Skip to main content

View Diary: I agree with The American Conservative. Wait, what? (241 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  belief in human evil is why I'm a lefty (5+ / 0-)

    If I believed humans were naturally good, I'd be some kind of glibertarian anarchist arguing that mechanisms of social control were unnecessary.

    To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

    by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:41:48 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  We all have the potential for both (8+ / 0-)

      good and evil.  I am a liberal Christian because I am persuaded that we need to follow Jesus' admonition to do justice and be just people. This call is not only in the Bible; the literature of the ages and many civilizations recognizes the potential for greed in humankind and the potential for accomplishing justice and real good.

      "You're not allowed to sell your countrymen out to multinational financial corporations anymore and still call yourself a patriot." --MinistryOfTruth

      by Kurt from CMH on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 09:53:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you might think a little more (4+ / 0-)
      glibertarian anarchist arguing that mechanisms of social control were unnecessary.
      About the extent to which anarchism in virtually all of its political-philosophical incarnations accounts for a variety of "mechanisms of social control" -- assuming that you mean "controlling people from raping and pillaging you whenever they want and with total impunity." The mistake -- one many Americans in particular really get indignant when you question, because they are unable or unwilling to imagine alternatives to Romney, on the one hand, and Obama, on the other -- is to think that a highly regulated police-state is necessary for anybody except billionaires.
      •  this is kinda my point (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, Bisbonian, CenterLeft
        The mistake ... is to think that a highly regulated police-state is necessary for anybody except billionaires.
        A highly regulated police state is necessary to keep the billionaires in line and more generally to discipline the market and make it work to achieve society's goals rather than mindlessly following its own internal logic of "profit = good".  Even if you concede only that, you end up supporting the highly regulated police state whether you want to or not.  I just agree with Hobbes; that degree of control and the sacrifices of [IMO merely theoretical] freedom it entails can be justified in the face of the chaos, deprivation, and dehumanization that would result from letting market forces run wild.

        To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

        by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 10:15:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  exactly what you said (0+ / 0-)

          except the opposite.

          A highly regulated police state is necessary to keep the billionaires in line

          If you think the police are working for the masses to keep those billionaires in check, I suspect you've been drinking the same energy drink as Paul Ryan (Delusionade)

          •  so how would less control = less freedom for rich? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril

            I understand what you're saying and agree completely.

            What isn't clear to me is how fewer and weaker mechanisms of control would paradoxically make it harder for the billionaires to have their wicked way with us. I assume they'd still own everything, and even if there were no government, logically we'd all still work for them, we'd all still buy from them, we'd all still pay fees to use what they own, and we'd all still strive to be everything they want us to be so we can sell our labor at a higher price and thereby pay for the pricier goods and services which are paradoxically a better deal.

            "Bigger bully" leftism makes intuitive sense to me ... plus I hate the rich so I welcome the opportunity to hurt them.

            To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

            by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 11:05:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I basically agree with you (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, Bisbonian

              but there are some who make the argument that the concept of private "ownership" as we know it is only made possible by the existence of the police state.

              I would counter with the fact that if you start out with control of obscene amounts of property, it's fairly easy to recreate the police state, this time with its agents working directly for you.

              "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

              by kyril on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 12:00:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yeah, I've heard that argument (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyril

                that private property is made possible by police powers - be they wielded by feudal warlords or a centralized bureaucratic state - and I basically agree with it.  Except the logical conclusion from that is that concentration of property is the root of the problem, and dramatic (and invariably involuntary) redistribution becomes the obvious solution.  In a society where everyone owns the means to provide for themselves - without having to sell their labor or surplus fruits of their labor to anyone else - it would be impossible for a plutocracy to emerge.

                Except how could you achieve that redistribution without overwhelming power?

                To those who say the New Deal didn't work: WWII was also government spending

                by Visceral on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 01:36:06 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, the police state s to keep us in line (0+ / 0-)

            and the billionaires safe from us. If we ever smartened up.

            My dog is a member of Dogs Against Romney: He rides inside.

            by adigal on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 04:24:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  There are billions of acts of help and decency (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, blueoasis, Freedomfreak, melo

      done by humans for each other every single day.

      We have to distinguish the average person from the power-mad socio- and psychopaths who make up the bulk of political leadership: people who will lie, steal, cheat, and kill to enhance their position. These people and their acts/consequences, of course, is what we talk about in  media. So it's natural to form an impression that evil dominates. Even our earliest written records are propaganda for this or that "great" king who crushed and enslaved his enemies.

      Since most people "go along to get along" (or face being jailed, tortured, killed, or ostracized by the "leaders" if they don't) we have things as they are.

      But people are decent in the main. Perhaps not organized or impassioned enough to "fight the powers that be" but that's not the same thing as being evil.

      Until we devise a way to keep psychopaths out of power, we will suffer.


      The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

      by Jim P on Tue Sep 04, 2012 at 11:49:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (127)
  • Community (60)
  • 2016 (47)
  • Elections (43)
  • Environment (37)
  • Climate Change (32)
  • Bernie Sanders (32)
  • Hillary Clinton (30)
  • Republicans (29)
  • Education (28)
  • Civil Rights (28)
  • Media (28)
  • Culture (27)
  • Law (25)
  • Science (25)
  • Congress (24)
  • Barack Obama (23)
  • Labor (20)
  • Economy (19)
  • Trans-Pacific Partnership (18)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site