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View Diary: Can You Accept Simpson Bowles-Sh!t and Still Call Yourself a Democrat? (251 comments)

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  •  Did long use the phrase (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    priceman, poligirl, Words In Action

    "dictatorship of the proletariat'?

    I recall that he claimed not to be communist. If he said this, I'd want to see the complete context. Links, please.

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:52:12 AM PDT

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    •  Please explain (2+ / 0-)

      the real differences between authoritarian fascism and communist bureaucratic centralism in practice throughout the 20th century, beyond rhetoric and which precise groups of people were to be slaughtered?

      Once again, I'll wait

      Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

      by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 11:54:48 AM PDT

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      •  Fascism (4+ / 0-)

        has a lot of varied definitions and scholars are not in universal agreement, but I don't recall any experts including the soviet union in this. Authoritarian, certainly, but fascist? I think you're making the common error of confusing authoritarianism and fascism. Authoritarianism is a component of fascism, but without the other elements, is not fascism as a single factor.

        But you ignored my question. Are you taking the time to think before responding? I asked if Long had EVER supported the Marxist concept of "dictatorship of the proletariat." If he used that term, I want context. Please provide links. I do agree that the Marxist concept is authoritarian, which I don't support. I'm not a Marxist. But I doubt that Long used that term, and if he did, the context would be important, since he asserted that he was not a communist. And yet that one comment alone is not evidence of fascism.

        As to being an authoritarian, that assertion may well have some truth behind it. But in that, he wouldn't be alone in America politics. Most Democrats are authoritarian.

        Where would you put Long on the chart at the link?:

        http://www.politicalcompass.org/...

        If Long would be placed on the left of the spectrum, his authoritarianism would simply be to the left of Obama's authoritarianism, but Obama could still be said to be as authoritarian as anyone. What's the difference between authoritarianism used on a state level and authoritarianism used on a national and international level. Well, for one thing, there is the weaponry and the enormous power of the national security apparatus that Long didn't have. Long's abuse of power is puny compared to that of Obama's. Long didn't have a kill list. He didn't use indefinite detention. He didn't look the other way on torture, or allow inhumane treatment under his authority. He didn't turn detainees over to other states to torture by proxy. He didn't take away the right to habeus corpus as Obama has done with NDAA.

        Here's one concise definition of fascism from Webster's:
        http://www.merriam-webster.com/...

        See the areas I put in bold.

        Philosophy of government that stresses the primacy and glory of the state, unquestioning obedience to its leader, subordination of the individual will to the state's authority, and harsh suppression of dissent. Martial virtues are celebrated, while liberal and democratic values are disparaged. Fascism arose during the 1920s and '30s partly out of fear of the rising power of the working classes; it differed from contemporary communism (as practiced under Joseph Stalin) by its protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems. The leaders of the fascist governments of Italy (1922–43), Germany (1933–45), and Spain (1939–75)—Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler, and Francisco Franco—were portrayed to their publics as embodiments of the strength and resolve necessary to rescue their nations from political and economic chaos. Japanese fascists (1936–45) fostered belief in the uniqueness of the Japanese spirit and taught subordination to the state and personal sacrifice. See also totalitarianism; neofascism.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:46:10 PM PDT

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        •  Oh please (2+ / 0-)

          the very book in your sig line takes pains to show that Russian Communism and National Socialism were basically the same, and that one form of authoritarianism is indistinguishable from each other despite the rhetoric. Have you even read 1984 or just watched the movie?

          So, when Huey Long rules without checks and balances, with brutish intimidation and outright extra constitutionality all in the name of "Every man a king,"  how is that different than the red guards trying to achieve the dictatorship of the proletariat.  I'm talking in real terms to the real people crushed by the boot, not in the speeches of the pious.  

          Oh, and by the way, Italian Fascism was formed from the pro war breakaway faction of the Italian Socialist Party.  

          Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

          by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 12:57:53 PM PDT

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          •  *formed in part by (2+ / 0-)

            Along with a those who felt displaced by postwar economic society as well as those who thought that the liberal royalist government had betrayed Italy at Versailles.  

            Note to self, stop before I emulate the habits described in this diary.

            by Rustbelt Dem on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:07:49 PM PDT

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          •  Orwell seemed to think that fascism (5+ / 0-)

            and communist authoritarianism were different, but that they both led to totalitarianism, and thus the same end result.

            You are aware he was a socialist and he fought on the side of anarchists and socialists in the Spanish Civil War?

            Anyway, are you suggesting now that Long was in favor of full blown totalitarianism? (heh, this is getting wild)

            And you haven't answered my assertion that Obama has very strong steaks of authoritarianism.

            In fact, you've wavered all over the place and haven't really answered anything I've written.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act". -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 13, 2012 at 01:55:57 PM PDT

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