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View Diary: BREAKING: Libyan Govt. Makes First Embassy Killing Arrests (89 comments)

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  •  If the president brings them in and they are (18+ / 0-)

    properly charged with murder in US civilian courts, President Obama will have secured for himself a domestic political and foreign relations masterstroke.

    He will surge in the polls and Mitt Romney may as well go home and play with his offshore accounts.

    •  That might be better in a short-term, political (58+ / 0-)

      sense, but I think that it would be better for western relations with the Islamic World if they are tried and convicted in Libya.

      They are, after all, the ones who have to put a lid on pseudo-Islamic extremism, ie. they have a tough fight on their hands and it would be a great sign of things moving in the right direction if they themselves handle this, as it would encourage moderate, sensible Muslims throughout the world.

      As for Romney and his offshore accounts.... I hope that his ability to play with them is severely impaired after investigations into his possible tax evasion are concluded.  ;)

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 02:09:24 AM PDT

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      •  Mmm...methinks not. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rb608, Liberal Panzer

        They murdered diplomats. Methinks there is no location of the trial that will appease radicals. They're gonna have to learn to start doing things to improve relations with us too. Were not the ones who have to do all the relations improving methinks. I think the last thing we want to encourage is the idea that they can murder American diplomats over hurt feelings and then local courts (which may be far less fair than ours in many cases) get to decide the punishments.

        Extradition and trial in American civilian courts is the best possible remedy in the short term. Perhaps in the long term after their judicial systems are well established and deemed fair we can start talking reliance on local authorities.

        •  Let's say that you're both right. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy

          A crime committed against foreign nationals, on what rightfully constitutes the sovereign soil of a foreign nation, within the confines of a uniquely different foreign nation.

          A crime committed against unarmed, non-combatant civilians who were completely innocent of the inciteful actions that led up to the protests that "fronted" the Embassy assault.

          What would everyone think of moving the trial to the ICC, and having a joint US-Lybian prosecution team?  It might actually serve as a means to "back-door" the US into that particular treaty, as well.

          I count even the single grain of sand to be a higher life-form than the likes of Sarah Palin and her odious ilk.

          by Liberal Panzer on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 04:26:38 AM PDT

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          •  No. The myth of extraterritoriality of embassies (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KenBee, johnny wurster, kyril, Smoh

            dies hard, but it's a myth.

            The US Consulates and Embassies are Libyan soil, contrary to popular belief, and under Libyan legal jurisdiction. There is no standing to have the trial anywhere but Libya.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 04:38:12 AM PDT

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            •  You might want to go read up on that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              88kathy

              a little more.

              David Koch is Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

              by PsychoSavannah on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 05:16:02 AM PDT

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              •  Physician, heal thyself (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyril, Lawrence, Smoh

                Nothing in Article 22 grants extraterritorality:

                Article 22,
                1.The premises of the mission shall be inviolable. The agents of the receiving State may not enter them, except with the consent of the head of the mission.

                2.The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity.

                3.The premises of the mission, their furnishings and other property thereon and the means of transport of the mission shall be immune from search, requisition, attachment or execution.

                Nothing there about the embassy being foreign soil, or a grant of extraterritoriality. A crime committed at the US embassy in Libya is a Libyan crime, not a US one.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 06:51:27 AM PDT

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              •  I think robobagpiper is right. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Robobagpiper, kyril, Lawrence, Smoh

                See this long, extensive discussion of jurisdiction and embassies in US v Corey in the 9th circuit.

                http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/...

              •  More specifically, attacks on "internationally (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyril, Lawrence, greengemini, Smoh

                protected persons" such as diplomats are to be governed by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Crimes against Internationally Protected Persons, including Diplomatic Agents requires the country where the attack took place to either prosecute or extradite. There is no requirement to extradite because there is no extraterritoriality (unless established by treaty).

                The Convention’s central provision requires that a person alleged to have committed certain serious attacks against diplomats and other “internationally protected persons” should either be extradited or have his or her case submitted to the authorities for the purposes of prosecution (art. 7)
                source

                Libya would only be under an obligation to extradite should it choose not to prosecute itself, which seems rather unlikely.

                Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                by Robobagpiper on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 07:04:37 AM PDT

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                •  Actually, that would seem to include not only (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kyril, Smoh

                  the country where the attack took place, but any signatory where that might have jurisdictions over the suspects (say, in this case, they should flee Libya).

                  Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                  by Robobagpiper on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 07:07:33 AM PDT

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      •  I agree (8+ / 0-)

        Let us not forget that these extremists killed fellow Libyans.  Those murders need to be accounted for and condemned in Libyan courts.

    •  Libyan courts have jurisdiction. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, greengemini, Smoh

      If an American kills a foreign official in Texas, then Texas and the Federal Government have to decide who gets first dibs on trying the killer.

      "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

      by Yamaneko2 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 08:07:49 AM PDT

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