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View Diary: "If you f*** up, I'll hunt you down and kill you." (94 comments)

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  •  Whatever happened (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koNko, Otteray Scribe

    to "Reality based community"?

    I have no issues with Diaries being written from a particular point of view ... We are Liberals, and we write from that standpoint all the time.

    If that is all this Diary was, then I would not have commented.

    But it isn't. It's mean and nasty, it ignores cogent points that the Diarist is well aware of, and I am left to conclude that the intention was not to hold an honest debate, but to poison the well.

    There are no users here who would excuse Assange of murder, but there are those who have, apparently, already convicted him of rape.

    They will probably be some of the same users who scream for Guantanamo to be close because it strips detainees of due process.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Fri Sep 14, 2012 at 11:46:34 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I agree this diary/diarist is partisan (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wilderness voice, Rei

      And you may note I neither tipped or rec'd it for that reason, but did post at least one substantive comment expressing my own opinion.

      But honestly, can you show me the diary on this subject that isn't? Were it that this diary was the outlier amongst them I'd probably be more in agreement with you but I seem to have missed the moderate/factual ones.

      There are no users here who would excuse Assange of murder, but there are those who have, apparently, already convicted him of rape.
      Afraid I have to disagree on this point: there are some (or have been ... some seem to have left the room) highly partisan defenders of Assange that totally deny relevant facts and have gone way off the tracks making outrageous claims and accusations about the victims of these alleged crimes being the perpetrators, including characterizing them as "sluts" (which might logically raise the question if Assange seeks out such women). We have also had much wild speculation about Assange being a target for extraordinary rendition buy the US government in terms that verge on irrational CT.  

      One such person posts here today using a more moderate tone (indeed I tipped one comment) but if you checked the comment history you would find my above description accurate; it would not surprise me to find some people rushing to Assange's defense under almost any circumstance, they are that polarized. So I don't find it surprising that some on the other side react in kind.

      We should all be as fair and reality-based as you suggest, really, we are in agreement there. But failing that, I can accept partisan diaries with some reasonable basis and letting the points be argued in the comments.

      IOW, I dislike censorship. Let antagonists make their cases.

      No doubt Rei dislikes Assange. But there is some basis.

      What about my Daughter's future?

      by koNko on Sat Sep 15, 2012 at 12:40:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  such as what? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      it ignores cogent points that the Diarist is well aware of,
      I have read all the comments to this diary.  Perhaps I have missed it but I did not see anyone disputing the alleged facts.
      •  Read the comments again (0+ / 0-)

        Nearly all the "facts" are allegations.

        When it is pointed out that the criminal charges are, in Sweden, fairly minor "misdemeanors" that comment is pounced on with "rape is not a misdemeanor".

        Yet Assange hasn't been charged with anything, he is wanted for questioning on a charge that is nothing like rape as we understand it ... the language is used to incite.

        Virtually every other allegation against him amounts to nothing more than the suggestion that he is a bit of a jerk.

        What the Diarist willfully ignores is the political implications of the extradition warrant.

        Those implications are major, and they are real

        Bear in mind that a sovereign government gave him asylum based solely on the political implications in this case ... hardly something that we should simply dismiss.

        In every Diary about wikileaks or Assange, commenters have consistently said that JA should face a Swedish Court ... everyone.

        Yet the Diarist ignores this, and calls people "rape apologists".

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        by twigg on Sat Sep 15, 2012 at 11:09:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It also ignores (0+ / 0-)

          something else the Diarist is well aware of.

          Both Assange and his lawyers have offered his return to Sweden with one simple condition ...

          That at the end of any proceedings, whatever the outcome (which at worst would be a very short prison term), that Julian Assange is granted safe passage out of Sweden.

          Sweden has consistently refused to accept that, and they have lied about the reasons that JA couldn't be questioned in London.

          They have never given a decent explanation as to why they have lied, and I wouldn't trust a single word on any court or other document from the Swedish authorities.

          Something about this case smells very bad, and I will not be sidetracked by emotive responses to sex crime allegations.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          by twigg on Sat Sep 15, 2012 at 11:14:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That is simply not true. (0+ / 0-)

            Sweden has guaranteed to the Australian foreign minister no extraditions where there's a risk of death penalty or other human rights violations or where the charges have to do with intelligence or military matters, which is the maximum extent permissible by Swedish law.  The British government, which also has to approve the request, has issued a written statement guaranteeing no extradition where there's a risk of death penalty or other human rights violations, which is the maximum extent permissible by British law.  To ask more of either of them would involve telling them to tear up their extradition treaties.  Beyond that, the Swedish courts would also have to approve (under the same Swedish standards), the British courts would have to approve (under the same British standards), and the European Court on Human Rights, whose entire purpose is to prevent human rights abuses and political prosecutions, would have to approve.

            They have not once lied about the reasons he can't be questioned in Sweden.  It's very explicit in the prosecutor's initial filing:

            B.  The aim of the EAW

            5.  Julian Assange’s surrender is sought in order that he may be subject to criminal proceedings.

            6.  A domestic warrant for the respondent’s arrest was upheld on 24th November 2010 by the Court of Appeal, Sweden.  An arrest warrant was issued on the basis that Julian Assange is accused with probable cause of the offences outlined on the EAW.

            7.  According to Swedish law, a formal decision to indict may not be taken at the stage that the criminal process is currently at.  Julian Assange’s case is currently at the stage of “preliminary investigation”.  It will only be concluded when Julian Assange is surrendered to Sweden and has been   interrogated.

            8.  The purpose of a preliminary investigation is to investigate the crime, provide underlying material on which to base a decision concerning prosecution and prepare the case so that all evidence can be presented at trial.  Once the decision to indict has been made, an indictment is filed with the court.  In the case of a person in pre-trial detention, the trial must commence within two weeks.  Once started, the trial may not be adjourned.  It can therefore be seen that the formal decision to indict is made at an advanced stage of the criminal proceedings.  There is no easy  analogy to be drawn with the English criminal procedure.  I issued the EAW because I was satisfied that there was substantial and probable cause to accuse Julian Assange of the offences.

            9.  It is submitted on Julian Assange’s behalf that it would be possible for me to interview him by way of Mutual Legal Assistance.  This is not an appropriate course in Assange’s case.  The preliminary investigation is at an advanced stage and I consider that it is necessary to interrogate Assange, in person, regarding the evidence in respect of the serious allegations made against him.

            10.  Once the interrogation is complete it may be that further questions need to be put to witnesses or the forensic scientists.  Subject to any  matters said by him, which undermine my present view that he should be  indicted, an indictment will be launched with the court thereafter.  It can therefore be seen that Assange is sought for the purpose of conducting criminal proceedings and that he is not sought merely to assist with our enquiries.

            11.  It is not correct to assert that Assange has made repeated offers to be interviewed.  In September and October 2010 I was in constant contact with   counsel Bjorn Hurtig.  It was not possible to arrange an interview because   Assange did not come back to Sweden, despite my request that he did.  Frequently, Hurtig was not able to contact Assange to arrange the details for him to attend for interview.  An offer of an interview by telephone was made by Hurtig.  I declined this offer for the reasons outlined above.  It  was because his failure to attend Sweden for interview and so that criminal proceedings could continue, that it was necessary for me to request from the court an order for his arrest.

            Swedish law requires the trial begin within two weeks of the charges being filed, which happens at the end of the second interrogation according to Swedish law.  Thus questioning not in Sweden would be an absurdity, since, as explicitly stated, the point is to charge, not just to get information.

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