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  •  oh, the fascism! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IndieGuy, Minnesota Deb

    All this repeal of DADT and talk about marriage equality is really fascism in disguise!

    And Obamacare, flawed as it is by lack of the Public Option, is also really fascism in disguise!

    And SEAL Team Six getting Bin Laden was just a training mission to swoop down on protesters and herd them off to Gitmo en masse, or shoot them if they resist!

    Sheesh, talk about "those who forget history"!  

    Know what?  I'm willing to bet the downpayment on a house that nothing would satisfy you.  If Obama pushed through single payer, legalized pot, turned GM and Chrysler into employee-owned cooperatives, and prosecuted every last Wall Street crook, in his first six months in office, you'd still find something to complain about.  

    Because complaining is fun.  

    You don't have to admit it.

    It's self-evident.

    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

    by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:18:08 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  What about NDAA? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      northsylvania, aliasalias, sloopydrew

      It takes a constitutional law professor to flush habeas corpus down the toilet.

      •  and it takes someone who isn't, to decide to... (0+ / 0-)

        .... sit out an election, thereby handing their vote to the badguys?

        Your point was...?

        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

        by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 11:14:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JayRaye, northsylvania, aliasalias

          sitting out the election.  I'm holding my nose and voting for Obama.

          My point was, among those who seek to elect "more and better Democrats," we're not going to get better Democrats unless we insist on moving the Overton window to the left.

          That involves talking about ugly truths, like Obama signing NDAA, even if it annoys people.

          •  Well said. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Xavier Onassis EMTP

            "There's a crack in everything; that's how the light gets in". Leonard Cohen

            by northsylvania on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 12:37:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  tactical error: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Xavier Onassis EMTP

            YES we have to shift the frame to the left.

            But NO, talking about "ugly truths" is about as likely to do that, as talking about "cold hard reality" is likely to encourage atheism.

            That kind of messaging is blind and deaf to the way human minds actually work: it's like trying to sell vegetables by saying they taste like shit but they're good for you.  

            Would you rather spend your time with a person or in a place described as "ugly," or with a person or in a place described as "beautiful"?

            Would you rather sleep on something that's "cold and hard" or on something that's "comfy and warm"?

            Emotional narratives are what win and lose campaigns.  

            This has exactly zero to do with "facts" and everything to do with "feelings."

            The way to shift the frame leftward, isn't by stirring up a whole bunch of bad mood.   Quite the opposite: it's by stirring up a whole bunch of good mood.

            What you're against doesn't matter.  What you're FOR is what counts.  

            Now find a way to say it that's emotionally attractive and you'll make progress.

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 01:02:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Heads in sand, or up asses? (0+ / 0-)
              YES we have to shift the frame to the left.

              But NO, talking about "ugly truths" is about as likely to do that, as talking about "cold hard reality" is likely to encourage atheism.

              So sticking our heads in the sand (or up our asses) is a better idea? If you look how far RIGHT the Democratic party has gone over the past two decades, you'll see where that gets us. Further to the right. Apparently that's where you want to go. You missed the "better" part of the electing "more and better Democrats."

              But at least now I know why you tossed a donut my way (and went on to brag about it) -- reality apparently isn't recommended in your world.

              I will not touch Medicare, Social Security or Medicaid - Barack Obama

              by sloopydrew on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 02:12:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  apparently some people have their heads so far... (0+ / 0-)

                ... up their asses that all they can see, smell, and taste is shit.  And they're convinced they have to get other people to taste the shit in order to make progress.  And then they get all frustrated when nobody else wants to eat shit.  

                Get this: it's true, nobody wants to eat shit, not even a little nibble.

                You won't attract people by offering them shit sandwiches or shit snacks or shit-flavored ice cream, or even shit on a shingle with sauce on top.  

                If you want to get a message across successfully you have to stop being bitter and nasty, and start offering something positive, like a vision of the future the way you want it to be.  That's the kind of ice cream people will line up to get a sample of, and they'll keep coming back for more.  

                BTW I did not toss a donut your way.  Look at your HRs and you'll see where they came from.  I was highly tempted though, for that comment.  And when I HR something I always post a comment saying why I did it (them's the rules).  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 02:54:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right on with ignoring the facts (0+ / 0-)

                  We're two Liberals (well, I'm a Liberal, I'm not sure where you lie in the political spectrum, but I'm sure you're busy lying somewhere) -- and you're essentially saying WE can't discuss Obama's problems. Or even entertain ways of improving the Democratic party, outside of voting for a President we disagree with in so many ways. I guess I'm done talking to you, because you really don't have anything to say (or, if you do, you're unwilling to say it).

                  I will not touch Medicare, Social Security or Medicaid - Barack Obama

                  by sloopydrew on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 02:58:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  accusations of lying now? (0+ / 0-)

                    The not so subtle insinuation that I'm "lying" somewhere?  Gee, you really know how to argue your case.  

                    How do you think the Moonies attract people to their cult?   They do it by promising people paradise.  How do you think the religious right works?  By promising people salvation.

                    Everyone wants to feel good.  Nobody wants to feel bad.  If all you have to offer are bad feelings, you're asking people to eat shit on a shingle and they won't do it.

                    If you want to improve the Ds, the way to do it is by painting a vivid picture of how America looks and sounds and smells and tastes and feels when things are going better, and then tie that into progressive policies.  

                    As for "done talking to you," that's so much "la la la la I can't hear you."

                    Here's some clue: don't try representing yourself in court, OK?  

                    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 03:14:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I have to say (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sloopydrew

                  that this:

                  up their asses that all they can see, smell, and taste is shit.  And they're convinced they have to get other people to taste the shit in order to make progress.  And then they get all frustrated when nobody else wants to eat shit.  
                  reminds me of conversations with my abusive family.  If I want to talk about the abuse that I suffered, and they just want to keep rolling like nothing happened, I'm a drag.  I'm a pain in the ass.

                  In the light of day, they were abusers.

            •  I get what you're saying (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sloopydrew

              but there's a distinction to be made here:

              Emotional narratives are what win and lose campaigns.  This has exactly zero to do with "facts" and everything to do with "feelings."
              That's coming from the viewpoint of the seller, how one markets the product.

              I'm speaking as a consumer:  I want better products to choose from.  

              How will we move the Overton window to the left?  What will make our policy move to the left, having all the leftists just STFU?  I don't think so.  I don't think if we're just polite enough Goldman Sachs and the Koch brothers will say, "Whoopsie, didn't mean to overreach.  Here's all your stuff back, we'll never do it again."

              •  better products? (0+ / 0-)

                What will shift the window leftward is a comprehensive vision, narrative, and mythos about how much better things are when progressive policies are in effect.  

                That's what the left has been missing for decades.

                The 1960s counterculture got huge because it offered a comprehensive vision and plenty of good feelings to go along with it (largely pot and premarital sex).  

                The religious right got huge because it offered its own comprehensive vision of salvation and bliss in the hereafter, and righteousness in the here & now (which is also an emotional reinforcer).

                The plutocrats keep people in their thrall with visions of prosperity, the lottery mentality that anyone can become a millionaire.  

                And lotteries get huge the same way: by offering daydreams of instant wealth in exchange for paying the math tax.  

                No, we don't have to be polite to Goldman et. al.  I've been advocating various forms of protest aimed at basically shutting down the street grid around Wall Street: peacefully and effectively and in some cases undetectably until the deed is done.  We could shut down the street grid in Washington DC as well, and keep doing it until Congress deals with us.  

                But using that "stick" also requires holding out the "carrot," otherwise the whole thing just devolves back into bitterness which leads to cynicism and also tends to breed violence.  

                There is no substitute for a comprehensive positive vision.  Without that, the rest of it is a big waste of time.  

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 03:23:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with that. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sloopydrew

                  We do need to get people to understand how great progressive policy is to live with.  I think we should be blowing the roof off about Germany -- arguably the strongest country on the planet right now, and living large under the dreaded "socialism."

                  I don't see, however, that having most of America get on board with that is necessarily going to push the Dems to the left.  I could be wrong.  But if they never hear how we feel about NDAA and military operations in our major cities, what's their motivation to do diddly squat?  The only reason we're getting what we're getting now is because of Occupy.

                  And it's mind boggling, to me, that they didn't allow Occupy to Occupy the Fed in Minneapolis.  That right there should tell you who's in charge.

                  I like your idea of shutting down the traffic grid.

                  •  you missed the central point: (0+ / 0-)

                    This: "But if they never hear how we feel about NDAA and military operations in our major cities, what's their motivation to do diddly squat?" demonstrates that you missed the point.

                    "How WE FEEL" is IRRELEVANT.

                    The goal of organizing isn't to have a good therapy session where you get to express your feelings all over the place.  The goal of organizing is to win votes, period, full stop, end of story.  

                    And trying to get other people to share unpleasant feelings doesn't work.  It's what's called an "aversive stimulus."

                    "Here, sit still while I rub some dog doo in your hair."  Who's going to volunteer for that?

                    How'bout "Here, have an ice cream sundae!"   Yeah, you'll get plenty of volunteers for that.  

                    Does Detroit get people to buy cars by shitting all over the imports?  

                    And in politics:  negative campaigning suppresses voter turnout.  Why?  Because it's emotionally negative!  

                    The thing that works, time and time again, is to put forward the coherent positive vision.  It works for advertising, it works for campaigns, it works for religion, etc. etc., it just plain WORKS, and it keeps on working.

                    Use positive emotions, use themes that are uplifting, that attract people.  Describe life in progressive utopia, or at least in Germany and the Northern European social democracies.  Describe it in terms that evoke pleasant feelings, good feelings, happy feelings, awesome feelings, feelings that people want to have more of.  Because when people want more of those feelings, they vote for whoever has associated themselves with those feelings.

                    Jimmy Carter was grim and serious.  Ronald Reagan was happy and optimistic.  

                    GW Bush Senior was grim and serious.  Bill Clinton was happy and optimistic.  

                    Al Gore was grim and serious.  GW Bush II was happy and optimistic.  

                    McCain emphasized fear.  Obama emphasized hope.  

                    See how that works?

                    And yet, one of Clinton's recognized talents is the ability to take complex ideas and put them across in a way that people who are non-experts can understand.  So you don't have to dumb it down, you just have to say it clearly.   Obama's got that talent too.  Romney does not.  

                    These items are measurable facts: measurable in market share for advertising, and measurable in numbers of votes for campaigns.  

                    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:30:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Let me rephrase (0+ / 0-)

                      I didn't realize you were stuck on semantics.  

                      "The goal of organizing isn't to have a good therapy session where you get to express your feelings all over the place."
                      The goal of organizing is to have clear demands, and have them be met.  So if we do not insist that these intrusions on our civil rights are unacceptable, i.e., fight back, presto magico, we won't get more acceptable policies.
                      The goal of organizing is to win votes, period, full stop, end of story.  
                      Here's where it seems like you're not getting my point:  I'm not seeing the option of voting for what I want.  Lots of us aren't.  We get to vote for the lesser of the two evils ad nauseum.
                      And trying to get other people to share unpleasant feelings doesn't work.  It's what's called an "aversive stimulus.
                      I'm not interested in getting people to share negative feelings.  In this diary, I provided factual information -- which was not being shared by anyone else on this site to my knowledge -- that is relevant to American citizens.  A lot of people weren't interested in it, for the same reason they don't want to know about icky drone strikes or what really goes on in Guantanamo.

                      A lot of us already get that what we want is irrelevant.  I don't think I need to convince people that our country is way the hell off to the right, and it sucks.

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