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View Diary: British PM Cameron & Germans Merkel Tell Netanyahu to Shut the F'ck Up, "NO" to Red Lines (151 comments)

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  •  Funny to hear Netanyahu talk of fanatics w/ nukes (13+ / 0-)

    Irony aside, though, I see a serious roadblock to preventing countries like Iran from getting nukes.  Although it isn't seen as a problem here, we have a very strange nuclear status quo today.  A handful of countries, including the U.S., are allowed to have nuclear weapons, and a few others have obtained them without global backlash.  This puts us in a most awkward situation w.r.t. Iran - yes, we want them to stop developing nukes, but no, we're not giving up ours.  I'm concerned that the developing world will have enough contempt for this logic that non-proliferation may fail to garner widespread international support.  The solution is obvious - we have to do more in negotiating with Russia and China to reduce and ultimately eliminate nuclear stockpiles, if we want any moral authority in dealing with the likes of Iran.

    There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. -Thoreau

    by Frameshift on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:05:14 AM PDT

    •  A handful of countries including the U.S. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brooke In Seattle, RageKage

      and Israel are allowed to have nuclear weapons.

      "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." -B. Dylan

      by S F Hippie on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 07:16:12 AM PDT

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    •  We are reducing our arsenal (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic, jalenth, elwior, yaque

      Or we are negotiating such a reduction to occur w/a Russian reduction. President Obama is on record as wanting to pare down the US arsenal by a considerable margin.

      It is not the same thing as elimination of nuclear weapons but there is progress on that front (even as more nations look to join the "club".)

    •  I don't think that's likely (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mkor7, atana, yaque

      because the developing world mostly knows it has too much to gain from not having them.  NOtice how Brazil, Argentina, and CHile have all foresworn nuclear weapons, even though all could develop them quickly if needed.  Similarly South Africa.  Overall, I think a lot of the developing world is more interested in peace and prosperity than penis waving. This is a good thing. THese countries will support these efforts because they benefit from having their own neighbors being on board.

      Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

      by Mindful Nature on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 08:10:35 AM PDT

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      •  There are three kinds of countries. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mindful Nature, yaque

        1.  Countries that view their strategic situations as sufficiently vulnerable to require a deterrent system and trust another country who has such a system to guarantee their security.  (Japan, South Korea, Australia, Germany)

        2.  Like 1 but concluding that only their own capability will provide a trustworthy deterrent.  (US, Russia, France, Pakistan, India, Israel)

        3.  Countries that determine their strategic environment does not require a deterrent.  (Brazil, Argentina, Chile)

        This is an unstable situation that can quickly spin out of control in political crises.

        Where are we, now that we need us most?

        by Frank Knarf on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 11:54:29 AM PDT

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        •  Good analysis (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          yaque

          My sense is that there are a lot of countries in category 3 that form the backbone of the constituency for the NNPT generally, moslty to put pressure on category 2.  (I'd throw Iran in there also, obviously.)

          Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

          by Mindful Nature on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 01:02:45 PM PDT

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          •  please (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WattleBreakfast

            check the commenter's history in hidden comments before giving any mojo. thanks.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 02:27:33 PM PDT

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            •  Oh... (0+ / 0-)

              I'm well aware of Frank.  He's irritating as hell much of the time, but very insightful some of the time.  Since he's pretty contrarian, he picks up more HRs than he should (not too surprising), but I'll look for his hiddens to see just how objectionable he really is.

              That said, I'm pretty contrarian myself, so i'm probably more forgiving than many and maybe I should be.

              Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

              by Mindful Nature on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 04:47:42 PM PDT

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              •  he's not contrarian (0+ / 0-)

                that is his cover. he is a troll. he is a climate change denier. he repeats lies. he links to and cites climate denial sites that are nothing but lies.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:27:36 PM PDT

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                •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

                  I've looked through it, and there is a TON of HR abuse here.  Yes, he disagres with people, but he provides his evidence, unlike most.  He's wrong on a lot, but he's often right.  

                  I'm afraid I'm on the other side of thsi issue from you here.

                  Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

                  by Mindful Nature on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:51:24 PM PDT

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                  •  no (0+ / 0-)

                    he doesn't. as he is repeatedly told, his "evidence" does not say what he wants it to say, his links and citations often are to thoroughly debunked fringe sites, he ignores what the science actually says, and he repeats dishonest smears about activists and scientists.

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 05:59:54 PM PDT

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                    •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sean X

                      I have a PhD in plant ecology which of course included a substnatial focus on climate change science, so while Frank is often wrong in his intepretations, as I said, but he presents evidence is a fairly mild way.  I've disagreed with Frank a whole ton, but I've never found him disrespectful.

                      However, as a former scientist what I have extremely little patience for are enforcers who try to shape a unified group think by being hostile toward differing points of view.  For now, i am going to stand clear of your spat, but frankly I'm not entirely sure which of you is on weaker ground

                      Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

                      by Mindful Nature on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:06:07 PM PDT

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                      •  no he doesn't (0+ / 0-)

                        his mild way is his front. the scientific consensus on climate change is overwhelming, yet he repeatedly culls anything that he thinks will foment doubt, from the least credible sources, and continues to promote thoroughly debunked lies about climate scientists. you might as well call evolution group think. and given that we already have to fight the dishonesty and incompetence of the traditional media on climate change we really have no time for it here.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:18:19 PM PDT

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                    •  I should add an important caveat (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sean X

                      Unless my memory serves, I've been following you avidly since your turkana days on more sites than just here, and I give your opinion a tremendous about of weight and I'll keep mulling it over.

                      Where I'm really coming from is that I have known for a long time that there is a strong tendency toward intolerance of other points of view or of other kinds of evidence.  I am a bit unusual in my strong committment to the idea that encounters with reasoned people who disagree with us help make us stronger.  Uniformity makes us weaker and is actually antithetical to the liberal commitment to democratic (small-d) and enlightenment values.

                      i'm not sure how to express or carry out that sentiment, though.

                      Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

                      by Mindful Nature on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:17:50 PM PDT

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                      •  i appreciate that (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mindful Nature

                        and i generally agree about diversity of opinions. but this is not about opinion, this is about science. and frank consistently tries to cast doubt on established science, and continually promotes smears and lies about climate scientists. birthers are no better, and we certainly wouldn't waste time debating or even respecting or even bothering with their opinions.

                        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                        by Laurence Lewis on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:21:54 PM PDT

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          •  As will be obvious if you look, LL is attempting (0+ / 0-)

            to use his disagreement with me on an unrelated subject to harass me everywhere.   I believe this is against site policy and will find out soon enough.

            Where are we, now that we need us most?

            by Frank Knarf on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 03:13:51 PM PDT

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