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View Diary: Occupy Retrospection: What Have We Learned? (88 comments)

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  •  Rec'd for all the work and truth in the diary. (6+ / 0-)

    But we pretty much knew these lessons before Occupy. To get actual change, which we've not seen anywhere on earth at this point, we'll need to address a number of real things starting about now.

    The lessons we have yet to learn:

    1. We don't need a movement a tenth as much as we need focused, and definite, results. These are two separate things, and mixing them leads to non-ideological parties (read: most of the public) being effectively excluded on the one hand, and division and enervating, factionalist, side-shows on the other. Movements, except those that seek their own near-term obsolesce, are guaranteed to lose sight of their purpose, and instead devolve into trying to preserve the movement above all other considerations.
    2. People with jobs, with families, with limited or fixed incomes, can't get to mass demonstrations, or don't have the time to do so. (This is addressed in the last point in this list.)
    3. Yes, Virginia, there will be agents provocateur and fools.
    4. Mass demonstrations have their place, but are generally ignored by The Powers That Be, except for rhetorical, cosmetic, and co-optive uses. They can get away with this because...
    5. TPTB own the mass-reach media, and there simply cannot be a replacement for the ability to give the identical impression to the entire population within a day, and the preferred impression given is...
    6. provided by agents provocateur and fools who are pointlessly violent, thus further driving away the non-ideological, or generally non-political, members of the public (i.e. the population at large.)
    7. There is no substitute for specific goals and demands. When Frederick Douglass said "Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." he was talking about ending slavery, not making a generally nicer place.
    8. New, additional, ways of mass protest need to be created which a) bypass mass-reach media, b) bypass massed police presence, and c) avoids easy targeting and easy misrepresentation.

    The last point, how that would be done, was described in my diary written three months before Occupy existed. You can work it out from the title alone
    "National The King Is Naked Week" Coming to in front of your home! The title was long already so I didn't add "...home, office, neighborhood".


    The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

    by Jim P on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 06:12:38 PM PDT

    •  Yes. I just wrote a diary about that. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      duhban

      Here. Sorry for the pimping, but my diary is a direct response to this one.

      Have a flagon and discuss the news of the day at the sign of the Green Dragon, or hear me roar on Twitter @MarkGreenFuture

      by Dracowyrm on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 06:22:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  T&R'd your diary. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dracowyrm

        I don't agree with it all the way through, but I hope a lot of people read it. The point-of-view is as important as any given specific you had.

        As to "Movement" I always think of Dylan's line about the "Liberals" of his day: Social Clubs in Drag Disguise. Sadly, lots of Occupy's people were looking for companionship above all else. The Powers That Be, after all, will let us have as many happy or unhappy subjective states as we want, as long as we are not effective.

        Please read my diary. It gives a complete workaround of the Media/Armed Agents/Politician's long-ago perfected ways of neutralizing dissent. Which worked, as it always does and to nobody's surprise, with Occupy.


        The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

        by Jim P on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 07:04:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think you are sincere (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      2020adam

      but the bearer of mixed messages. i.e.

      But we pretty much knew these lessons before Occupy.
      Who knew? The teeny portion of the populace that comments on lefty sites like DK and a small group of others? The choir to whom we all preach here?
      We don't need a movement a tenth as much as we need focused, and definite, results.
      What results to which problem?
      followed by
      Mass demonstrations have their place, but are generally ignored by The Powers That Be,
      and a negation of that remark
      New, additional, ways of mass protest need to be created
      How can you suggest that Occupy is muddled then?
      •  I don't think it's mixed. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        714day

        Re: the 4 quotes and points.

        1. Few of the people who didn't know before Occupy, know now, a year after Occupy. Rage at the Bankers and their fraud was widespread, all over the political spectrum, long before Occupy.
        2. The Criminal-Type Banker's rampant destruction of our society and ownership of our government would be the problem. The reason Occupy came into being.
        3. ??? Mass demonstrations help attract attention and thought up to a point, then they don't. There are generations-old strategies and tactics for neutralizing popular outraged protest, and they work.
        4. You'll have to admit you've not read either my diary or considered what the title of it implies.

        You use what works for a purpose, and you create new tools to do task the other things don't get done. What hasn't been done is actual change of the political and economic systems.


        The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

        by Jim P on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:44:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Block by block organization. Build it, and have it (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          714day, Jim P

          coordinate the splintered left organizations (health, political, cultural, environmental, business, food, neighborhood, educational).

          Then have it create its own information networks using old and new technology for redundancy.

          Keep it decentralized, but build central information exchanges.

          And all that Jim P and Occupy says--

          :  )

          The labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce. Clayton Act, Section 6.

          by Ignacio Magaloni on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 10:00:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I had read your diary. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jim P

          Which was another reason I felt you were sincere and trying to make an earnest contribution.
          The notion that "everybody knows" is incorrect, I think, as well as the idea that there is only one notion that Occupy is trying to move forward. (There are comments upthread about this that make alot of sense.)
          Therefore, it would be nearly impossible to make the leap to a large percentage of the population making and displaying signs, regardless of how succinct, at an agreed upon week.
          At any rate, I think you have a contribution to make and some of your ideas about finding ways to launch beyond the MSM are perfectly valid.

          •  Thanks. The one disagreement: (0+ / 0-)

            It has been no secret to the general population for a long time -- since 2008 for almost everyone, since 2005 for people paying attention to non-official stats and the stores closing left and right in their neighborhoods -- that the Bankers are screwing us over.

            The contribution of Occupy was to make politicians take notice. Sadly, they've been neuturalized quite effectively and nothing new is going to come out of Occupy as long as the focus is on building a movement instead of mobilizing everyone who is hurting.

            (my diary, btw, is about a workaround on not only MSM, but police and provocateur tactics. Note the one caveat I emphasized was "IF it goes viral". Occupy can't make anything go viral at this point which will reach anyone not already identified with them.)


            The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

            by Jim P on Fri Sep 28, 2012 at 12:54:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  PS: (0+ / 0-)

              Of course I'm sincere. And I follow the adage "use your reason based taking account of experience."

              We are where we are. We don't get out doing just what we've been doing.


              The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

              by Jim P on Fri Sep 28, 2012 at 12:57:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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