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View Diary: Austerity and Depression breaking Europe apart (73 comments)

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  •  The Iceland comparisons are really (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    erush1345, Rei

    ridiculous. Iceland completely collapsed, and so using the growth rate of the economy there is to compare to anything is just silly. And Iceland is a tiny economy - their GDP of $14 billion is about one one-thousandth that of the EU (0.1%).

    •  Yes and no (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rizzo, DarkLadyNyara, Mr Robert

      Iceland can't be compared to Europe because Spain and Greece don't have their own currency like Iceland does.

       However, Spain and Greece's economies HAVE collapsed. Even worse than Iceland's.

      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

      by gjohnsit on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 07:35:45 AM PDT

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      •  How do you know that? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        erush1345

        Iceland's economy is so small and so volatile that most economists admit that measuring it is fraught with difficulty. But let's say that all these economies have collapsed to the same degree. The simple fact that Iceland preceded the rest of Europe by about 18 months is reason enough for the growth rate (estimated) by its bounce to be going the right direction while Spain and Greece continue to go the wrong direction. There is so very little that Greece and Spain can learn about how to help themselves by studying the path of Iceland. And this claim that Iceland's economy has materially benefited by the prosecution of bankers is really a stretch.

        •  Basic numbers (4+ / 0-)

          I'm judging by both GDP and unemployment.
          Now you can say that both numbers are wrong, but that will quickly end this debate since we won't have anything to judge it by.

            As for benefiting from the prosecution of the bankers, I disagree.
             I've posted several diaries on the subject, and prosecuting fraud has the benefit of reintroducing the rule of law. That inspires confidence in the economy, allowing people to feel safer taking risks.
             It's hard to measure, but it makes sense.

          ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

          by gjohnsit on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 07:48:24 AM PDT

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          •  Who gets prosecuted in a fiasco (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            erush1345

            like Greece? The people who have continually voted in governments that refused to face the music but instead just borrowed their way into this black hole deserve some of the blame, do they not? We still, today, have some that think that any kind of pullback in places like that is cruel and unusual.  In a democracy, the people will (eventually) suffer for decades of policies that doom the economy. California is in better shape than these countries, but suffers from the same disease - a populace that wants more benefits and services, but doesn't want to pay for it. CA was an enormous issuer of municipal bonds (both the state and its cities); after decades of borrowing in order to sustain an impossible budget, there is going to be pain when the music stops. And it has stopped.

            •  goldman (4+ / 0-)

              goldman is where you start.  There should be tens of thousands of bankers in jail right now, after the saving and loan scandal which was tiny compared to this we put away thousands.

              How come we toss in jail a person who steal a pack of gum to teach them a lesson, but those stealing billions of dollars and life savings, we simply ignore it? really, and that will make things better

              Bad is never good until worse happens

              by dark daze on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 08:03:46 AM PDT

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              •  I think that is just terrible. (0+ / 0-)

                What actual crimes did these tens of thousands of people commit? Or does that even matter? Throw 'em in jail because they make too much money, have MBAs from elitist schools, and are greedy. Right?

                •  Fraud is widespread (5+ / 0-)

                  During the S&L crisis, over 1,000 bankers were prosecuted.

                  Today the level of fraud is much, much worse.
                  The FBI said fraud was systemic in 2004. Our regulators ignored it, and it got worse.

                   Tens of thousands of criminals is a fair estimate.

                  ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                  by gjohnsit on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 08:16:05 AM PDT

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                  •  You are talking mostly about (0+ / 0-)

                    civil prosecutions of small bank and thrift boards in which FDIC funds were lost due to a failure. The FBI was referring to mortgage fraud, which was perpetrated primarily by brokers and borrowers. Borrowers lied in order to borrow more, brokers lied in order to book commissions, bankers, ratings agencies, and institutional investors knew of the fraud but kept printing deals, and the Bush administration and Alan Greenspan sat back and did nothing to stop it. There's plenty of blame to go around. But prosecutable criminal offenses? Hardly.

                    •  Prosecutable criminal offenses? Without a doubt (5+ / 0-)

                      We are talking about tens of thousands of forged signatures in foreclosures. That alone is a criminal offense, and an easy one at that.
                         And that is only one example.

                      There is also the drug money laundering, the market rigging, insider trading, etc.

                       Tens of thousands of prosecutable criminal offenses. I don't have a doubt in my mind.

                      ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                      by gjohnsit on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 08:29:45 AM PDT

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                      •  Robosigning is not criminal. (0+ / 0-)

                        And the people who robosigned are basically clerks. Robosigning was a technical issue; the solution is to give those borrowers another chance to come current or modify. But the reality is that all those borrowers did indeed default, otherwise they wouldn't have been in FC to begin with. Seems to me that you want to throw a lot of people in jail who really aren't criminals at all. As a progressive I believe in checking a government's ability to lock us up, requiring things like, you know, actual laws to be broken, actual prosecutions to take place, actual convictions, etc.

                  •  Today the level of fraud is much, much worse. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Rizzo, gjohnsit

                    And under the Obama administration, sadly enough, financial crime prosecutions are down, not up.

                    "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand? David Crosby.

                    by allenjo on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 09:57:21 AM PDT

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                •  Mike Papintonio disagrees (0+ / 0-)

                  And so do I, and I'll trust his judgement on these matters any day over yours.

                  http://www.ringoffireradio.com/

                  The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

                  by ozsea1 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 at 11:29:56 PM PDT

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            •  Who gets prosecuted in a fiasco like America? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gjohnsit
              Who gets prosecuted in a fiasco like Greece?

              The people who have continually voted in governments that refused to face the music but instead just borrowed their way into this black hole deserve some of the blame, do they not?

              16 trillion and counting, and we have "continually voted in governments that refused to face the music but instead just borrowed their way into this black hole."

              "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand? David Crosby.

              by allenjo on Sat Sep 22, 2012 at 09:56:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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