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View Diary: When you enslave yourself to banks, this is what happens (206 comments)

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  •  It is true (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sparhawk, peregrinus

    and you are even willing to concede that it is...

    Greece's problems were in large part self-caused,
    Now whether or not the technocrats are applying the correct medicine is certainly debatable, but the root cause is not.
    •  no its not (13+ / 0-)

      Greece problem IS EVIL BANKING.  It took the world decades to finally catch on, and it seems soem people " ahem lookin at you" still need a lil more time to catch on

      Bad is never good until worse happens

      by dark daze on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 06:43:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I find people who ignore the real (23+ / 0-)

      suffering in Greece while haughtily asserting that they took on too much debt, to be sadistic.

      The "medicine" being applied is killing the patient in an excruciatingly slow and painful way. Why do you seem to care more about laying blame for the malady than finding a way to stop the suffering?

      48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

      by Siri on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 07:25:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is no way to stop the suffering (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        valion, peregrinus, gjohnsit, FG

        Greece consumes more than it produces. Greece is going to have to reduce its consumption to sustainable levels. Doing so is incredibly painful but it will happen anyway voluntarily or otherwise.

        Greece's economy will contract and restructure until its production equals its consumption. There is no way to stop this from happening.

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 08:49:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If the Eurozone is so dead set on (6+ / 0-)

          having a financial union they should be open to financial transfers. Would you say the same to the state of Alabama?
          It doesn't have to be this way.

          48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

          by Siri on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 09:26:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Re (0+ / 0-)
            having a financial union they should be open to financial transfers. Would you say the same to the state of Alabama?
            Yes. If you have a currency denominatable in small enough increments there is no problem and no need for productive people to subsidize unproductive ones.

            (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
            Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

            by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 09:41:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, because babies are born with the ability (12+ / 0-)

              to be productive immediately.  (And for babies substitute children, the elderly, the handicapped, those who had no educational opportunities, etc. etc.)

              But you know what?  I do wish we had the libertarian ethos in place for one year.  The day my tax dollars as a blue stater stop subsidizing red states is the day that the Tea Party disappears and socialism starts to thrive.

            •  Here is where we disagree (13+ / 0-)
              there is no problem and no need for productive people to subsidize unproductive ones.
              We are talking about people here, not machines. They are productive but they're caught in a debt trap and subjected to austerity measures that are killing any hope of establishing a productive economy. Do they need restructuring? Sure. Do you want to see a generation lost to hunger, despair and disease? It seems your answer is yes in your zeal to punish them. I would say at a certain point aid is necessary. Not loans, aid.

              I don't want to live in a world where productive people feel absolutely no qualms about letting people starve. The situation in Greece is dire and that will have dire consequences for not just them but for those that are watching it and refuse to do anything to actually help them.

              What you espouse is laissez faire capitalism to the point of nihilism. There are reasons to help people for the sake of helping them.

              48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." ~ Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama -7.88, -6.21

              by Siri on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 10:20:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The same attitude Sparhawk espouses here (6+ / 0-)

                is the same attitude that led to the rise of nazism in Germany.  Fuck em - its their fault.  Is it no wonder that the Neo-Nazi party in Greece has 22% support?  

                What people sometimes forget is that prolonged misery can breed something far more sinister underneath.  

              •  Re (0+ / 0-)

                You misunderstand me.

                Welfare is a good thing (sometimes), but that's entirely different from what you are talking about.

                What you are asking for is for entire states and nations to be subsidized indefinitely and with no requirement that they get their economies together or eventually live on what they make.

                This is bad business and bad economics.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 11:16:42 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  And the Banksters are productive, are they now? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gjohnsit

              Defining mortgages as a block, falsely rating that MBS as being worth having, and then selling that fantasy block taking real money earned by real people doing real work.

              Selling words, and fantasy classifications, and paper as real things. That's "production," eh?

              I agree the non-productive bankers really should be starved, but not the honest people the world over who were defrauded, lied to, and screwed by financial instruments of societal destruction.

              Hey, the Russian mob makes billions every year selling drugs. Are they productive in your view? After all, they have money, don't they? They have lending operations.

              The only things the Banksters actually produce in the real world is terror, poverty, chaos, and suicides. Otherwise, they could all disappear tomorrow, and what little use they provide could be replaced instantly; and the much much bigger evil they impose would start to lift. How can a person reach adulthood and not know this?


              The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

              by Jim P on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 02:18:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Re (0+ / 0-)
                Selling words, and fantasy classifications, and paper as real things. That's "production," eh?
                Ignoring criminal activity, being a middleman moving capital from nonproductive uses to productive uses is certainly valuable. Unless you think it's unproductive for people to have homes and cars, items that are mostly available only on credit.
                Hey, the Russian mob makes billions every year selling drugs. Are they productive in your view?
                Yes, they are. There is a demand for drugs. People are 'happier' when they have them (you might argue otherwise, but that's just a value judgement). Filling people's needs and making them happy is absolutely productive.
                The only things the Banksters actually produce in the real world is terror, poverty, chaos, and suicides
                Hogwash. Got a pension? Or a house? Or a car? Thank a bankster.

                (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 02:29:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And here's where you go off the rails, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gjohnsit

                  and flirt with the sociopathic side of capitalism:

                  but that's just a value judgement
                  No. Crack salesmen cost human beings  their life, their relations, their money, their health, their years. It's not "just" a value judgement.

                  Every hear the phrase "He knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing." Having heard it, have you ever considered what it meant?

                  Again, pension, house, car: all that could be provided without criminality and fraud. Honest bankers, without the greed disease, have given loans for centuries. How can you not know that?

                  I'm not sure why you keep trying to equate legitimate business activity with what has gone on with the large banks, which along with laundering money for drug-dealers and terrorists and crooks of all stripes, have pushed fraudulent instruments upon fraudulent instrument.

                  Surely you are not so stupid as to believe that these kinds of activities have anything to do with "moving money around productively" as the world has seen declines in real-world productivity exactly because of these various criminal activities.

                  But then again, you count Russian Mafia as a productive agency in society. And no one forced you to. You actually volunteered that as the mark of your values.

                  The price of everything, the value of nothing. Call a friend if you don't understand.


                  The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

                  by Jim P on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 04:01:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re (0+ / 0-)
                    No. Crack salesmen cost human beings  their life, their relations, their money, their health, their years. It's not "just" a value judgement.
                    You like to assign value judgments to things other people do and micromanage their lives to 'protect' them from influences you find unhealthy.

                    I don't bother. I just see a demand for something that at most only harms the user. I have no interest in paternalistically gainsaying other people's opinions about their own lives.

                    Again, pension, house, car: all that could be provided without criminality and fraud. Honest bankers, without the greed disease, have given loans for centuries. How can you not know that?
                    And we are in complete agreement! What's the problem?
                    I'm not sure why you keep trying to equate legitimate business activity with what has gone on with the large banks, which along with laundering money for drug-dealers and terrorists and crooks of all stripes, have pushed fraudulent instruments upon fraudulent instrument.
                    I don't equate the two. I am interested in enforcing the law all the time. I vigorously opposed the bank bailouts when many posters on DKos were shaking with fear in 2008.
                    But then again, you count Russian Mafia as a productive agency in society. And no one forced you to. You actually volunteered that as the mark of your values.
                    My values are that as long as you aren't hurting a third party, filling a market demand is a good thing because it makes people happier. Someone is always going to have an objection to things like drugs, sex clubs, and teletubbies. I don't really see fit to draw the distinction.

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 05:56:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I have two problems here (0+ / 0-)
                   being a middleman moving capital from nonproductive uses to productive uses is certainly valuable
                  Yes, it does. But if you want to find this activity happening you have to look outside of Wall Street. The Big Banks hardly do this anymore. They are almostly exclusively in the speculation market now. They've left things like small business loans to small banks and credit unions.
                   Got a pension? Or a house? Or a car? Thank a bankster.
                  Excuse me! First of all, I paid for my car with cash. Lots of people do.
                     Secondly, pensions are usually run by firms that aren't banks.
                    Finally, no banker ever gifted anyone anything. If you own a house you paid down the mortgage and the banker never lifted a finger to help you.
                     If you still have a mortgage then you don't own the house, and the banker will kick you out the second he/she gets a chance.
                    There is nothing to thank here.

                  ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                  by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 04:17:39 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re (0+ / 0-)
                    Yes, it does. But if you want to find this activity happening you have to look outside of Wall Street. The Big Banks hardly do this anymore. They are almostly exclusively in the speculation market now. They've left things like small business loans to small banks and credit unions.
                    So? IPOs, 'big business loans', pension management and other services are valuable, are they not?

                    Put it another way, who pays Wall Street for their services, and what do they pay them for? You can't possibly believe that all or even most of their income is from illegal activity.

                    First of all, I paid for my car with cash. Lots of people do.
                    Yeah, and lots of people don't. You think a lot of car owners over in the academia-is-poverty diary paid cash for their cars?
                    Secondly, pensions are usually run by firms that aren't banks.
                    Even so, pensions tend to own... stocks, bonds! All things made possible by big business underwriting and investment banks!
                    Finally, no banker ever gifted anyone anything.
                    Obviously. You pay them for a service (lending you money). Don't like it? You can always rent. Home ownership would be out of reach without banks, obfuscation aside.

                    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                    by Sparhawk on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 05:45:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  I don't believe in TINA (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mrkvica, Siri, TimmyB, LucyandByron

          Greece was in a tough spot, and there was going to be some suffering, but it didn't have to be like this. It didn't have to be this bad.

            What's more, let's keep in mind that the people suffering right now aren't often not the same people who benefited from the earlier boom.

          ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

          by gjohnsit on Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 11:12:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  What about Spain and Ireland? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit

      Spain and Ireland's problems weren't self caused, so why are they in the same boat?  

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