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  •  That's your belief. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Neuroptimalian, G2geek

    But let's switch it: what if it wasn't Piss Christ.  What if it had been Piss Koran.  What would your reaction be in that case?

    Republicans: if they only had a heart.

    by leu2500 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 01:23:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The same (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hoosier Al

      Bronze age idols hold no interest to me.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 01:33:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That is not belief it is FACT (0+ / 0-)

      Learn the difference.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 01:47:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Horace, I'm not religious. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        But I know sincere people who are.  Please show them some respect.

        Republicans: if they only had a heart.

        by leu2500 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 03:56:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Link to your fact? (0+ / 0-)

          Didn't think so.

          If I gave Christians as much respect as they have given me I would be in jail.

          Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

          by Horace Boothroyd III on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 03:57:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  insert "Jews" there and see how it sounds. (0+ / 0-)

            Sorry, but right-wing fascist ideologues do not get to capture "Christianity."   I refuse to cede that ground to them, any more than any other ground including science, politics, and education.  

            See also:

            Martin Luther King.
            Desmond Tutu.
            Jimmy Carter (and his grandson!).
            Dorothy Day.
            the Berrigan Bros.
            et. al.

            And JC himself: "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

            by G2geek on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 05:29:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hey (0+ / 0-)

              I have an opinion too.

              And I AM restraining expressing my true feelings on the subject.

              And AFAIC they are all equally dangerous until proven otherwise- There is no distinction until I know I'm safe.

              I have to put up with their indoctrination and insults daily. They can buck up while I am in a mood this week and just deal with it.

              Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

              by Horace Boothroyd III on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 05:34:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  dude, you just fell in a hole with that one. (0+ / 0-)

                Quoth you:  "And AFAIC they are all equally dangerous until proven otherwise - There is no distinction until I know I'm safe."  (Emphasis added.)

                Substitute "brown people" or "Mooslims" for "they" and it reads like something straight from the Tea Party.  All the more surprising from someone who's regular news beat here includes anything to do with LE misconduct and its rationales.

                This is how creeping tyranny in disguise of anti-terrorism works:  Fear for one's own safety leads directly to viewing "others" in an over-wide category of threat, leads directly to prejudice and unpleasant measures against said "others."

                Really:  Martin Luther King's Christianity is equated to Pat Robertson's?  Jimmy Carter's to Jerry Falwell's?  The Catholic Worker to Opus Dei?  The Berrigans (Catholic pacifists) to The Family (neocon imperialists)?  

                That's like equating Sufis with Talibans because "they're all Mooslims."  It's absurd and I know you know better than that.

                But thanks for illustrating so well the point that this shit can grab hold of anyone's mind, on the left as well as on the right.  Sorry if calling you on it was embarrassing.  Hopefully anyone who reads this thread learns something from it.

                "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                by G2geek on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 11:20:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No you are inserting that. (0+ / 0-)

                  And in doing so minimizing not only my expression but denying the validity of my angst.

                  Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                  by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 05:11:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  internal reality vs. external reality: (0+ / 0-)

                    For example "Uh-oh, a pit bull dog!, I'm scared it's going to bite me!"

                    The feeling of being scared is real.

                    The associated belief that the dog is going to bite you, may or may not be correct.

                    Conflating the two into "validity" is a logic error of assuming that feelings always reflect external reality accurately.  The fact is that feelings don't always reflect reality accuratly.  

                    Sure your angst is real.

                    But the leap from that to being unwilling to separate the progressives from the fascists, is a logic-error of over-generalization.   There's another word for that: prejudice.

                    And the leap from there to the idea that "they" are "dangerous until proven safe," is even worse: "guilty until proven innocent."  

                    And those are exactly the same steps of faulty reasoning from gut feelings, that the religious right uses, and that racists and other bigots use, to justify oppressing various minorities.

                    Have some insight here!  Don't fall into that trap: don't become the very thing you despise.  

                    "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                    by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:14:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It is a cheap rehtorical device (0+ / 0-)

                      designed to silence minorities.

                      I expect better from you.

                      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                      by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:24:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Angst & fear feel shitty. They're a form of pain.. (0+ / 0-)

                        ... and the best thing to do with pain is to heal up whatever was causing it.  

                        If you can work your way through this, you'll be much better equipped to help others get over their own prejudices.  That's the lesson and the challenge here.

                        Fear is the root cause of hate.  

                        Fear is the starting point, and hate is the defense mechanism.

                        How often have you heard someone say "I really hate spiders!" who, at root, was terribly scared of spiders?   First comes the fear, and then comes the hate as the reaction to the fear.  

                        Look at the word "homophobia."  We run into someone who hates gay people, and we say they're homophobic.  This reflects an underlying truth: at root they are terrified of homosexuality, very often because they have same-sex attractions themselves, and they're terrified of going to hell for those feelings.  

                        And the way they react to that, is to hate themselves for having those feelings, and then hate anyone else who's gay because gay folks have accepted those feelings.  And the risk of accepting those feelings also terrifies the homophobe, who projects it in the form of "gay people recruit straight people," and all the rest.  

                        Where did racism come from?  Fear that black slaves would rise up and kill the white people who oppressed them.  Fear of black people.  Fear transformed into hate, the attitude that black people were less than human, in order to justify cruelty and oppression against them.  

                        What's the cure?

                        Every progressive has their own prescription for getting over prejudices.  

                        I don't believe it's necessary to "purge oneself" of "evil feelings."  The feelings are real.  It's just that they are real inside and they don't reflect what's going on outside.  

                        So what I suggest is that it's perfectly OK for a straight person to be afraid of gay people, or a white person to be afraid of black people, or whatever:  just as long as they treat everyone politely and equally under the law.  

                        So someone might come home from work and say "I had to work with this black guy today, and oh boy! was I scared!"  

                        That's not racism, as long as it isn't taken out on the black coworker.  

                        Over time the feelings work themselves out.  Eventually the person comes home from work and says, "I worked with this black guy today.  He's pretty cool.  Turns out we were both rooting for the Rangers in the World Series last year.  Ha, wonders never cease!"  

                        After a while the fear goes away.  Same thing with homophobia, for example in the military.   "My buddy in the unit is gay.  That's not my cup of tea but he's damn good at putting artillery on target, so we're cool."  And that was the root of the end of DADT.  As people got to know people who weren't like themselves, the fear went away and the rest of the stuff went away with it.  

                        Now I'm not going to suggest that you go hang out in a church or something.  But you might want to read some stuff by Martin Luther King, like some of his speeches that have been transcribed.  

                        There's a gal around here by the name of GenXAngster who figured it out for herself.   She's a ferocious atheist but she understands that there are Christians and there are Christians, and not all of them are rabid right-wingers whose goal is to put us in gulags.  She thinks some of 'em are pretty cool.  And she's on solid ground with herself about who she is and who's OK and who's not-OK.  I'm willing to bet that she isn't walking around with a bundle of pain in her backpack.  It feels good to not carry a bundle of pain around.

                        "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                        by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:59:21 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I think the number of teeth I have lost (0+ / 0-)

                          is a pretty good indicator my fear is protecting me.

                          Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                          by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 09:06:03 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  by which you mean: (0+ / 0-)

                            You've been attacked and beaten up more than once by people who identify themselves as Christians of one kind or another?  

                            Did you try to get justice against the attackers?  And also, did you get any counseling including peer counseling at the time?

                            I understand how getting a violent attack can cause someone's self-protect mechanisms to go on overdrive.   Someone close to me was robbed at gunpoint by a black guy and oh-boy!, did they ever get the fear of black guys after that, and the prejudices that go along with.  Took about 6-7 years for that particular fear & attitude to wear off.  

                            One thing that helped was that they spent a decent amount of time in a place that's majority black, so after a while their fears were worn away by everyday social & business interactions.  

                            When stuff like this goes on, it's important to scope out all the things that happened before the attack, to see if there are other things that one might have to do in order to reduce risks in the future.  People can be surprisingly unaware of safety factors that their emotions hadn't picked up in the first place.  

                            And then there's also the harsh reality that some places are not safe for some people, so the thing to do avoid those places as far as possible.  

                            But if you let your enemies' attitudes of prejudice become your own attitudes in a different form, then your enemies have won.  Don't let the bastards win.  

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 10:19:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Most of the damage done to me was done (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek

                            when I was 9 and yes they were very religious. The random beatings just reinforced their message.

                            Police don't take reports from transgender people.

                            I've tried to desensitize myself to them by exposure but that just prolongs that time I'm insulted and slighted. The never learn and pointing out that they are hurting me or encouraging others to hurt me is useless.

                            Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                            by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 10:39:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Martin Luther King was locked up in a... (0+ / 0-)

                            ....narrow and roach-infested cell, and yet his confinement was not useless: he wrote that letter, the words of which still resonate in our hearts, half a century later.  

                            The transgender struggle is at the cutting edge of civil rights today, because it speaks to the question of what is most real about a person, what is immutable, and what is subject to change by the sheer force of will to bring one's outward life into alignment with one's inner realities.  

                            The transgender reality calls into question the conditionality of love that hinges upon sexuality, and calls for the unconditionality of love that hinges upon the mind and soul and character.  That is a leap that few today have even the capacity to make in a most complete way: and those who refuse to try, too often retrench themselves and nurse their inability into pride and then into self-justification and the will to oppress.  

                            You didn't ask for that when at the age of nine (and here I vaguely recall another diary you wrote about that) you discovered the reality of your own life and started to speak the truth of that reality, and suffered brutality for doing so.  

                            But as with a repeating nightmare, there comes a point where one must force oneself to wake up before the monster arrives on the scene, and do that each time one sees the same dream beginning to unfold, until that dream no longer recurs.

                            Trying to desensitize yourself to an unfolding repeating nightmare is not the same thing as waking up and breaking out of it.  When the Buddha finally comprehended the nature of the human endeavor, he said "I am awake!"  Today the metaphor for inner illumination is the image of the lightbulb above one's head, for example as a scientist finally comprehends the nature of a complex relationship of physical phenomena.  But the inner sensibility of illumination and awakening is much the same: today we even know that the paths in the brain are much the same, and we can localize them on a map of the brain itself.  

                            The way to cross a walled border is not to throw oneself against the fortifications until one's bones break.  The way across is up and over and into a new world.  

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:51:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  What did they have to say to MLK? (0+ / 0-)

                          Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                          by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 09:33:56 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  that statement sounds pretty neutral except.... (0+ / 0-)

                            .... if one knew something more about the people who signed it.  For example they may have been supporting integration and attempting to urge white folks to cool it and not engage in violence.  Or they might have been opposing integration and attempting to urge anyone, white, black, both, to cool it and not engage in violence.  

                            The statement appears very carefully constructed to say basically that integration was going to happen, that people are going to disagree strongly about that, but that people shouldn't react to it with violence.  

                            I would be reluctant to come to any conclusions about the statement without knowing more about the people behind it and the other things they were doing.

                            ---

                            I gotta' scoot for now; I'll be back later this afternoon.

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 10:26:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  MLK was not confused by what they said. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek
                            MY DEAR FELLOW CLERGYMEN:

                            While confined here in the Birmingham City Jail, I came across your recent statement calling my present activities "unwise and untimely." Seldom do I pause to answer criticism of my work and ideas. If I sought to answer all the criticisms that cross my desk, my secretaries would have little time for anything other than such correspondence in the course of the day, and I would have no time for constructive work. But since I feel that you are men of genuine goodwill and that your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I want to try to answer your statements in what I hope will be patient and reasonable terms.

                            Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                            by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 10:33:10 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  OK, so there's the context: (0+ / 0-)

                            Those were the "white moderates" that King had so thoroughly warned about, the ones who say that justice will come "in time," and for whom the time of justice never comes.

                            But how can one confuse the blazingly clear and deeply inspiring words of King himeself (I read his entire letter and the annotations), with the hateful words of today's worshipers of Mammon and devotees of power who wrap themselves in ecclesiastical garb while urging their followers to embody domination and hatred in their every doing and their very being?  These are as different as any two groups of humans can possibly be.  Both call themselves Christian, but it's clear who the historical Jesus would embrace as his friends and who he would condemn thunderously.  

                            The religious right is a shameful and disgraceful perversion.  It fails all tests of consistency and all tests of decency.  It is the heir, in its origins, and its words, and in its deeds, to the viciousness of those who bombed black homes and churches with the blessings of complicit authorities of their era.  

                            And to lump together these heirs of segregationism with the heirs of Civil Rights, is not only a logical error, not only a concession of defeat in the face of evil, but the internalization of the very disease itself.  

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:18:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But the soft ones only hide their dismissal of me (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            G2geek

                            as human better.

                            If I had not experienced the soft hate too I would agree with you. But the soft hate makes it even worse because they refuse to understand or even acknowledge that they are being injurious. All the while pretending to support you, at least until you call them out on it. Then they get hostile because you are challenging their theology, and that is sacrosanct. Not my right to a home, food, or a job but their theology certainly is.

                            I agree there is a difference between someone that will kill me out right and someone that not only ignores my suffering so I die from exposure but gets angry at me for asking them why they won't let me inside. So I still find them equally dangerous.

                            Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

                            by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 08:38:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you're standing at the frontier, not only of... (0+ / 0-)

                            ... civil rights, but of the evolution of the human mind.

                            See also my just-posted reply to your other comment.

                            ---

                            To recall part of that reply:  Transgender reality challenges core assumptions about what is real in human existence, what is innate, and what is subject to change through sheer force of will to bring one's outward life into alignment with one's inner reality.  It challenges the conditionality of love that hinges upon sexuality, with the unconditionality of love that hinges upon the heart, mind, soul, and character of a person.  

                            ---

                            That's a leap that few today are even equipped to make.  It's an evolutionary leap in the nature of the human mind, from love that's based in sexuality, to love that's based in the mind and the character of a person.  It challenges deeply-rooted instincts that have been necessary for the propagation of the species, right up to present times when what threatens the species isn't an inability to propagate but the effects of propagating all too successfully.  

                            The closest previous struggle was the struggle for inter-racial marriage, because the "mixing of races" challenges the very identity as well as the power of those who benefit from being able to hold others down based upon something as visible as color.  

                            But consider how slowly even progressives change their attitudes about what is immutable about humans, and about the relationship of surgery to the nature of one's humanity:

                            Consider all the callous jokes about Dick Cheney, that make reference to his use of an artificial heart: these still play upon the prejudices that arise from the conflation of the idea of "heart as blood-pumping organ" with the idea of "heart as metaphor for human feeling."  

                            Those jokes demonstrate a fear of Cheney as monster, as larger-than-life, and more powerful than ordinary humans.  But the reality is that Cheney is a frail old man who has lived his entire life in a state of abject terror of his own mortality: from his youthful draft evasion to his frequent heart attacks to his ultimate reliance upon a piece of imperfect technology for his tenuous lease on life.  

                            That "monster" turns out to be a relative weakling, and his superhuman powers turn out to be a pure illusion of our own fear: our fears that are nothing more than the contagious uptake of his own state of permanent fear.

                            And here we are only talking about the replacement of an internal organ.  Transgender reality that includes gender surgery, is even more difficult for most people to grasp.

                            And yet: there was a time when male erectile dysfunction was referred to as "impotence" (literally: powerlessness), and when psychiatric depression was an unmentionable subject, nearly taboo due to its apparently pervasive resistance to treatment.  There was a time, but is no longer, because both of those taboos were swept away in the relative eye-blink of the time it took for reliable treatments to become widely available.  

                            The reliability of those treatments is such that today both conditions are spoken of in the same manner as any other ordinary medical condition that's fixed with pills.  The "stigma" that formerly attached to each, is now considered a quaint superstition of an earlier era.

                            So it's inevitable that transgender reality will follow much the same path, as a direct outcome of genetic medicine.  When two old friends meet up for the first time in years, to discover that one of them has switched genders, the reaction will be more along the lines of "holy cow!, you look just wonderful!" and a big mutual hug.  

                            Between now and then, are the un-asked-for struggles of pioneers such as yourself, both the bold and the reluctant.  But part of that struggle is going to involve making people recognize that the future of genetic medicine is coming whether they like it or not, and gender will be one of the many things that can be changed at will with a course of prescriptions.  

                            I had a Phys Ed instructor in high school in the late 70s, who got at this topic indirectly, and perhaps un-intentionally, when he gave the class a brief lecture and thought-exercise.

                            Basically he asked this:  If a close friend got injured in war or on the job, such that he lost an arm or a leg, would he still be the same person?  What if he lost both arms and both legs?  What is it about a person, that you appreciate most as a friend?  

                            And so it goes for pants and dresses, penises and vaginas: what is it about a person, that anyone respects and appreciates most as a friend, and, one might ask, what is it that one loves about someone else?  

                            So there's a way forward.  Ask people the same questions that my phys ed instructor asked.  Don't make the overt connection to transgender reality.  Let them figure that out for themselves.  When they do, they might have a lightbulb go on in their heads.  

                            "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

                            by G2geek on Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 09:41:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

    •  same for me both ways: hate speech. (0+ / 0-)

      See also my other comment on this further downthread.

      "Minus two votes for the Democrat" equals "plus one vote for the Republican." Arithmetic doesn't care about your feelings.

      by G2geek on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 05:26:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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