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View Diary: The return of Droney (231 comments)

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  •  Maybe because it goes to credibility. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    reginahny

    The first diatribe I saw here about the President failing the left was 12 days after the inauguration.  With the support for drones at the level it is it won't make a bit of difference if the criticisms continue for the next 40 days. You of all people should know it isn't about complaining...it's about what you can actually get DONE.  If people want to complain for the next 40 days and secretly (or openly) hope the President isn't re-elected then they are certainly free to do that.  If they think that strategy will in anyway affect the usage of drones I think they are wrong. Losing credibility by complaining when it has no effect isn't helpful. I personally think there is no loss in waiting until the election is over. Then the burden of explaining why it "isn't the right time now" will dramatically shift. I personally think going after the problem from the top down (ie the President) is counterproductive. I think we need to change public opinion and perception rather than demand that elected officials go against the tide of public support.

    "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

    by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 08:33:57 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  OK (13+ / 0-)

      This is such a cop-out

      You of all people should know it isn't about complaining...it's about what you can actually get DONE.
      Getting stuff "done" actually involves sticking to their convictions no matter who is in charge because one thing that is true is that those issues will be there no matter and will only stay at the forefront if people don't turn a blind eye and accept that as the way of the world.

      There are no sacred cows.

      by LaEscapee on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 08:41:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just curious, why was that? (11+ / 0-)
      The first diatribe I saw here about the President failing the left was 12 days after the inauguration.
      was it due to his blanket endorsement of torture by giving immunity to anyone in the CIA who tortured?

      or was it due to his quickie approval of 42 out of 46 MTR coal mines?

      or perhaps doubling down on Bush's idiotic education policies in the person of Arne Duncan?

      •  "why" is unimportant. (5+ / 0-)

        ...that it was twelve days (omg!!1!!) is all that mattered.

        •  I'm sorry, obviously I am more forgiving than you (0+ / 0-)

          think I should be. I never expected the President (or any politician) to not disappoint me.  I never expected him to do everything I wanted--or even most of it. I certainly never expected him to get things absolutely right right off the bat. Obviously others aren't like me. I think if you are going to teach a politician to tie his shoes you have to accept that it's progress if he simply sits down in the same room with his shoes.  Very little has been done by fiat. Almost all progress has taken time and been incremental. Though this is not a diary about how the President shouldn't be re-elected (at least I think it isn't) if you want my view on whether we should support him the answer is yes.  And the reason is that change takes time. Lots of it.  Especially when our opponents are rich corporations. So being displeased after 12 days I totally get.  Giving up after 12 days--not so much.

          "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

          by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 08:56:43 AM PDT

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      •  If I recall correctly it was about his selections (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roadbed Guy

        of men from the financial sector for his cabinet.  If your ultimate position is that you don't like President Obama and his policies and don't want him elected just say so. I'm just saying I wish we could have a discussion about drones without it being linked to either supporting or not supporting the President. I am hoping there is a way to support the best candidate who can be elected and still try to address the problem of drone warfare. Even IF drone warfare were my only issue it still can't be addressed within the confines of this election.

        "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

        by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 08:48:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  he hehe hehe eh (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stellaluna, gooderservice, Aspe4

          I forgot about Timmy, d'ohh!!!

          but don't worry, he'll be on the list next time . ..

          •  And for all of my support of the President being (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Roadbed Guy

            re-elected...I haven't forgotten Tim. : )

            "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

            by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 08:58:15 AM PDT

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            •  the bottom line is that every single DKer (5+ / 0-)

              is going to hold his or her nose (if that's what it takes) and go out there and vote for the POTUS (and down-ticket as the case may be).

              Simply because we're non-stupid enough to know that the alternative is so much worse.

              But, shit like this really, really makes it much more difficult to go out there and enthusiastically make the case to the proverbial undecided voter that there really is any substantial difference between the parties (unless someone happens to care about the supreme court, which surprisingly few people do . . .)

              •  But I'm not having to hold my nose. (0+ / 0-)

                For a Presidential candidate he has disappointed less than most. The nose-holding comes to politicians in general. Probably because the majority of the people they represent don't think like me.  And I disagree that the undecided voter doesn't see the difference between the parties.  The poll numbers wouldn't be what they are if that were the case. I think the poll numbers absolutely reflect the perceived difference between the parties as it has become more glaring as every day has passed. With that said, it doesn't mean their isn't a lot of work to be done when dealing with politicians.

                "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 09:08:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I almost agree (5+ / 0-)

                My one beef is that those that claim they care about the supremes ar ignoring the fact that it's been a long time since a Democrat even offered up a liberal

                There are no sacred cows.

                by LaEscapee on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 09:12:21 AM PDT

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                •  Yes, that is a problem (4+ / 0-)

                  Dems tend to appoint totally competent, solid centrists who in a vacuum would be excellent appointees.

                  But in the "big picture" they tend to be to the right of who they are replacing, thus consolidating the court's march to the right.

                  But still, with a Republican POTUS things would be MUCH WORSE (yeah, the "lesser of evils" argument wears thin, but heck, what are we supposed to do?)

                •  You are so correct. But it is still a difference (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Roadbed Guy

                  by comparison. I think the President wasn't willing to expend political capital on an ugly fight for confirmation. I wish he would have but I can see why he didn't. If I am right (and I could be wrong) the political capital isn't as much of a problem as it is when re-election is looming. His choices have been good on some criminal issues though. It may be dreaming but his history suggests things could be better in that arena the next four years. Just as his history as a pragmatic, patient non-controversial candidate predicted the first four years. At least I hope.

                  "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                  by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 09:21:09 AM PDT

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                  •  I'm assuming that the key word is "some" (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gooderservice, kurt
                    His choices have been good on some criminal issues though.
                    because his stance on non-violent drug offenses has been totally baffling . . ..
                    •  I'm referring to SC decisions as being somewhat (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Roadbed Guy

                      positive. But we will see on 4th Amendment issues to be decided shortly. DOJ is a disappointment. But in his defense it would need a top to bottom cleaning out of Bush hires and I don't think he's had time for that. I do think the financial crisis changed who the President could be and what risks he could take.

                      "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                      by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 09:31:20 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You do seem to have an endless supply (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LaEscapee, Aspe4

                        of excuses for Obama.  I find that truly amazing.

                        But in his defense it would need a top to bottom cleaning out of Bush hires and I don't think he's had time for that.
                        He hasn't has "time" for it?  Top to bottom?  How about starting with asking for Holder's resignation like a long time ago.  

                        You make it seem like Obama has no responsibility for the DOJ, none, whatsoever.

                        Yet somehow Bush was criticized when Bush had his own clowns running the DOJ.

                        There was no better time for Obama to delegate the cleaning house of the DOJ than the first two years with the huge number of Dems we had.  He obviously didn't do because he didn't want to.  That's troubling.

                        •  Well the point I had tried to make about this (0+ / 0-)

                          issue was that Ithought it would be more productive to have a conversation about the use of drones without the pro or anti Obama distraction.  It seems that in continuing the conversation with Rustbelt Dem about unrelated matters I have offended you by seeming to make "endless" excuses for President Obama.  I won't defend myself or him on this point to you since I think it is counter-productive to the discussion of drone warfare.  

                          "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                          by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 01:02:21 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  The drones didn't go rogue. (0+ / 0-)
                            Ithought it would be more productive to have a conversation about the use of drones without the pro or anti Obama distraction.
                            I hope you're not saying the drones are killing innocent people and Obama has no earthly clue it's happening, and I hope you're not suggesting that he alone can't stop it.
                            It seems...I have offended you by seeming to make "endless" excuses for President Obama.
                            I do find the use of excuses to be offensive, not that you personally offended me.  
                  •  Oh yeah I get it stella (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Roadbed Guy

                    and I'm sorry for coming off so contentious in the beginning. I totally get it and would never want the R's in charge, I just tend to get upset when people I know to be on "our side" act like the other side. Demanding fealty was the exact reason my first vote a against my grandfather, he supported something I didn't I was of age that's a wrap.

                    I actually wrote a diary stating that I will not vote for this President, it won't matter I'm not in an important state. I'll vote down ticket that won't matter either because I vote left in a right world and until others admit that voting center right is the problem we get what we get.

                    There are no sacred cows.

                    by LaEscapee on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 09:35:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I also don't agree to the fealty requirement. (0+ / 0-)

                      But I also don't expect politicians to be anything other than politicians.  And I found out a long time ago that my issues are not always aligned with the majority of voters.  But just because politicians aren't ever going to do everything I want doesnt mean I'm going to stop trying to get them to.  But more importantly, I think our best gains are made when we can show that the electorate has moved to our side.  When that happens the politicians will follow in large part.  So on this drone issue I think the best thing we can do is make sure people know and understand what is going on.  And make sure they understand that drones are not making us safe.  If they aren't.  So my discussion advocating that we not make the President and this election the focus of our attentiion is more that I don't think it is helpful.  And fighting other progressives over the President is not helpful.

                      "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                      by stellaluna on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 01:17:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Stella what you seem to miss in this convo (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        BradyB, kurt

                        is that no one is arguing against this president specifially, at least I'm not. I argue against the policy that so many have come to accept because our guy is in charge. Just like any President says "I wouldn't that" it's bs because the next will and will have the power to do so because the before provided that option.

                        There are no sacred cows.

                        by LaEscapee on Mon Oct 01, 2012 at 03:06:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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