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View Diary: Why Obama's New Teacher Incentive Pay Will Take Education Backward (254 comments)

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  •  We can't do a US study... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban

    ...because the Unions block every attempt to institute Merit Pay.

    I just linked two peer-reviewed studies, one of them with a HUGE samples size and neither of them with any possible hidden political agenda. I think that they demand more than an backhand dismissal.

    The Diarist linked a video claiming that small rewards do work as incentives.

    You sound like a Tea-Partier rejecting Universal Healthcare because "America ain't the same as them furrin' countries...!"

    (Unless you can empirically document some specific cultural/genetic factors that make Indians and Israelis radically different from Americans.)

    •  Now you're just being ridiculous. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      caul, maf1029

      It's not even debatable that the US education system and economic situation is in any way similar to the two countries you are offering as evidence, and yet you are using my observation of that fact to accuse me of xenophobia.

      Laughable.

      Here's a link to an article that discusses some particular shortcomings in the merit pay proposal. Not that it will do any good to point you in the direction of reason...

      (Unless you can empirically document some specific cultural/genetic factors that make Indians and Israelis radically different from Americans.)
      Total red herring. Nobody but you even made mention of the idea that Indians and Israelis are radically different from Americans. I pointed out that some of the primary factors (the educational system in the US, the economic conditions in the US, the salary and prestige of public school teaching in the US as opposed to Israel and India) in the relevant situation are totally unalike.

      But you are not interested in arguments made on their merits, are you?

      •  I read the article you linked. (0+ / 0-)

        If what that guy says is true, why does Merit Pay work in other countries?

        Also, the author trips over some common fallacies:

        "Factors Beyond Teachers' Control" -- That's what VAM is for.

        "Measurement Problems" -- Measurement is not the problem, it's the solution. If you are afraid teachers will teach to the test (they will), just use a tougher test.

        "Teaching is a complex profession, and teachers do a lot in the interest of students that really isn't measurable." -- Oh really? If it can't be measured, how do you know it gets done? Or is this like the Emperor's New Clothes?

        "Misunderstanding Human Motivation" -- Didn't we just go through this?

        The objections are getting thinner and thinner. But even if I can't convince you,  you still need to take reform seriously. A growing majority of voters agree that Public Education needs overhauled. Your time and mine would be best spent coming up with good reforms that work.

        The alternative will be to have ALEC shove something down our throats. Think Privatization. Computer charter schools. Creationist Academies. I don't think either of us want that.

        Progressives need to fix education -- or it will be fixed without us.

        •  Hey, we agree on something. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          caul, maf1029, Odysseus
          Progressives need to fix education -- or it will be fixed without us.
          That should, of course, read:
          Progressives need to fix education -- or it will be 'fixed' without us.
          The problem is, your idea of 'fixing' is worse than the disease.

          I do like the argument, though. Let's see where an analogy might take us:

          You're going to be executed. You have no choice about that, it's already been decided. What you can do to take part in the process is attempt to affect the method of execution! Would you prefer poison, garroting, disembowelment, or defenestration?
          Your argument totally makes sense. I don't see how any teacher could possibly protest that there might be a better alternative to being put to death by people who don't seem to have any real motivation except profit.

          As far as your actual, sensible question go, let's see:

          If what that guy says is true, why does Merit Pay work in other countries?
          Different countries work under different conditions. Every situation has a solution, but any particular solution does not fit every situation.
          "Factors Beyond Teachers' Control" -- That's what VAM is for.
          Here are just a few examples of how and why VAM was, is, and ever will be, utter crap:

          EVAAS, Value-Added and Teacher Branding

          Gary Rubinstein on VAM

          Economic Policy Institute on VAM

          John Ewing on VAM

          A Teacher's View on VAM

          And, in the theme of the Chicago strike, Richard Rothstein

          So much for VAM. It's a crap sandwich. Stop eating it.

          "Measurement Problems" -- Measurement is not the problem, it's the solution. If you are afraid teachers will teach to the test (they will), just use a tougher test.
          Ha ha ha! Make the high-stakes fiasco even harder! Brilliant! That'll totally fix everything!
          "Teaching is a complex profession, and teachers do a lot in the interest of students that really isn't measurable." -- Oh really? If it can't be measured, how do you know it gets done? Or is this like the Emperor's New Clothes?
          Go read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". When you are done, give me a precise definition of "quality".

          (Yes, it's a sophomoric exercise, but it fits.)

          "Misunderstanding Human Motivation" -- Didn't we just go through this?
          Well, somebody sure seems to be misunderstanding something. (Don't look now, but I think it's you...)
        •  Throats? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Roadbed Guy, ManhattanMan

          Alec ramming shit down our throats? Here in Indiana, they already did and the Obama Administration was acting in collusion with them. After facilitating 6000 votes for President Obama in 2008, and working my ass off, not to mention the money I donated, the corporate wing of the Democratic Party took steps to robotize children's minds by doubling down on high stakes standardized testing.

          Educational experience based on non-consensual behaviorism is authoritarian mind control.

          by semioticjim on Sun Sep 30, 2012 at 04:36:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have correctly stated the facts. (0+ / 0-)

            Even Obama is in favor of these reforms.

            Wake up -- THIS IS A DONE DEAL.

            We need to make sure that the measurement systems, voucher programs, an Charter School regulations are applied fairly and sensibly.

            Now is not the time to lay down in front of the bulldozer. 'Cuz you'll get run over...

            •  Spoken like a true "I was just following orders" (0+ / 0-)

              minion!

              "Yes, I knew that the results would end to the extreme detriment of an entire generation of children - but our political leaders said frog, so I jumped!"

              Not just pathetic; suicidal, in the long run.

              Come on, MM -- you must know that the measurement systems, voucher programs, and charter schools work against the development of the individual as a fully-functioning, rational, highly cognitive intellect; that's what the data says! At best, those methods simply don't equal the average public school!

              So why are you so desperate to help further the dumbing down of America?

    •  Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      progressivist, elfling, Odysseus
      We can't do a US study because the Unions block every attempt to institute Merit Pay.
      But the diarist linked a major, 5-year study on merit pay in the US in the diary!

      Guess what? It doesn't influence student outcomes!

      •  Also, there are 23 right to work states (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elfling, Odysseus

        If unions were blocking merit pay, so we couldn't perform studies which is an obvious lie, what is stopping merit pay in non union states?

        •  Excellent point. MM just keeps floating them (0+ / 0-)

          right over the plate, doesn't he?

          I have to admit, he does keep revising his arguments. Though one thing he never really varies is his consistent tendency to avoid completely anything he can't respond to without demonstrating his arguments are simply wrong. He's been doing that here for years now.

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