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View Diary: Why Obama's New Teacher Incentive Pay Will Take Education Backward (254 comments)

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  •  You're going quantify student motivation, and how (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    caul, maf1029

    a particular teacher was responsible for that motivation, via test score improvement?

    Are you high?

    •  Test scores... (0+ / 0-)

      ..quantify whether a student understands or doesn't understand something.

      Converting them from "doesn't understand" to "understands" might need actually teaching them the subject matter, or it might need motivating them to learn it, or maybe have other aspects that I can't think of right now.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sat Sep 29, 2012 at 07:38:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're totally missing (or avoiding) the question. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maf1029
        So, motivating your students should not be part of teacher evaluation?
        You're not explaining how this evaluation of the teacher's ability to motivate the students can possibly be measured.

        You're not even addressing the issue.

        •  Re (0+ / 0-)
          You're not explaining how this evaluation of the teacher's ability to motivate the students can possibly be measured.
          Why would you bother measuring it?

          The only metric that matters is whether the student understands the material. Motivation contributes to student learning (I think... though I could be wrong) so if teachers do a good job it will show up in test scores.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sat Sep 29, 2012 at 09:17:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So you'd give great scores to teachers (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

            fortunate to have kids who come in already knowing the material or whose students have parents who give excellent tutoring after the child received a confusing lesson in class.

            Compare that to the teacher whose kids don't have a safe place to sleep at night and who have no quiet place to read, study, or do homework.

            Obviously, teacher #1 is way better and teacher #2 should be fired.

            Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

            by elfling on Sat Sep 29, 2012 at 10:16:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Re (0+ / 0-)
              fortunate to have kids who come in already knowing the material or whose students have parents who give excellent tutoring after the child received a confusing lesson in class.
              This is why you use value added analysis. Kids who already know the material don't help you, only ones who show improvement. Genius kids in your class don't really help you.
              Compare that to the teacher whose kids don't have a safe place to sleep at night and who have no quiet place to read, study, or do homework.
              This should all work itself out in the wash. Everyone should get a relatively even distribution of kids. Besides, for expert teachers this kind of kid might be more desirable since you can demonstrate much more progress than an average kid.
              BTW, I am not 100% sold on value added analysis as the only method of evaluation, but certainly whether students actually learn course material or not is very important and must be be measured.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Sep 30, 2012 at 07:29:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The schools don't get an even distribution of kids (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN

                so you can't expect individual teachers do.

                Value-Added measures, as they have been done to date, do not measure the same material at the beginning and the end of the year. Typically they measure the kids' percentile at the end of one grade and compare them to the percentile at the end of the next.

                In addition, that kind of analysis can only be used for:
                - teachers in the classroom 5 years or more (to get a sample size of 100-125 kids)
                - teachers in grades 3-6, where the kids have only one teacher all year but were old enough to be tested they year before.
                - school systems where the same test has been given 5 years or more.

                To get around these deficiencies, some school systems have reacted by evaluating kindergarteners with formalized rubrics (at the expense of instructional time with little or no benefit to the kids) and other strange contortions to try to try to come up with numeric scores to assign to every teacher. Most of these attempts to pursue numbers forget our first principle: to improve instruction and increase learning.

                Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                by elfling on Sun Sep 30, 2012 at 10:12:00 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Your own post makes the argument that the ability (0+ / 0-)

            to motivate students should be part of a teachers evaluation!

            So, motivating your students should not be part of teacher evaluation?
            A teacher that makes students want to learn (all other things being equal) to me is a better teacher that doesn't or can't.
            If you want "motivating ability" to be part of a teacher's evaluation, you have to be able to measure it!

            You are literally arguing against yourself!

            What kind of credibility do you think you can possibly have at this point?

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