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View Diary: Daily Kos Elections Polling Wrap: On debate eve, polls show Romney hurting in swing states (again) (196 comments)

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  •  King is a disaster in Maine (13+ / 0-)

    I've decided this week I just can't vote for him - I am voting for Cynthia Dill. She is the Democrat in the race, and it's beyond foolish that Dems are just supposed to line up like sheep beyond the campaign of someone who trashes Dems as much as Republicans. King's campaign has somehow gotten the email addresses of all Maine Democratic donors and is sending out begging emails to all of us to donate and campaign for him. Yet he refuses to say he will caucus with the Democrats. So insulting and disgusting. If you email and ask the campaign point blank, they say he is too "fiscally conservative" to caucus with Democrats, and too "socially liberal" to caucus with Republicans. But it appears he IS a big enough idiot to think he can somehow get committee assignments and support for Maine by caucusing with no one. A delusional full of himself dope, that's our Angus.  If elected he will be more arrogant and a bigger grandstander than Lieberman. Just can't stomach voting for him. King is all about King. More and better Democrats, even if it takes another cycle to get there.  

    •  Please don't... (27+ / 0-)

      Seriously... I know King is a douche of major proportions, but don't get LePaged again, please...


      by LordMike on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 07:40:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  In this case (24+ / 0-)

        I'd say that the thinking should not really be "more and better Democrats", but "fewer Republicans."  And if it takes an Independent who will seldom if ever vote with the GOP on major issues, then that's what it takes.

        37, MD-8 (MD-6 after 2012) resident, NOVA raised, Euro/Anglophile Democrat

        by Mike in MD on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 07:46:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Believe Me I've Wrestled with It (10+ / 0-)

        But King is running a "pox on both of your houses" campaign. I've corresponded with the campaign to be absolutely sure he's sticking with the vow not to caucus with Dems, and that sealed the deal. He rails against the "partisan extremists" in both parties in the emails he has the gall to send soliciting money from "extreme partisan" folks like me -- in other words, Democrats. I know my vote doesn't count for much, but it matters to me. Cynthia Dill is a Democrat with a good record in the legislature. King is a tool, and a rusty one at that. Hopelessly puffed up ego and zero campaign skills after 12 years out of the ring. I honestly think if he gets enough heat and falls behind in polling he might suck it up and commit to caucusing with Dems. He would then win easily, and he'd be forced to follow through with a promise to caucus with the Dems instead of making everyone kiss his ring for weeks after the election. He's depending on Dems acting out of fear of being LePaged. I'd rather vote my beliefs than my fears. Plus if there's one thing I've learned from reading the front page over the past few weeks, we should never be afraid to call a dick a dick.

        •  I respect that (0+ / 0-)

          The other kind of thinking g helped get us into this mess

          Never believe your own press, never drink your own KoolAid

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:18:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  When did he vow not to caucus with the Dems? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LordMike, elwior

          Did he also say he would caucus with the Republicans?

          Unless he's an idiot or I am completely ignorant of how the Senate works, not caucusing would cause him to be basically powerless.

          Have you ever considered that he's done the math? He might win easily by saying he'll caucus with the Democrats, but even if he does, he'll lose most if not all of the support he had from Republicans. It's much more like he'll be a senator if he plays the "pox" card, however falsely, because he'll almost certainly get 45 percent of the vote. If he does that, he wins, because Dill will get enough of the vote to prevent Summers from winning.

          "The election of Mitt Romney and a supporting congress this November would be a...disaster for America. Think of the trainwreck that has been the Conservative government in Britain since 2010. And square it."--Brad DeLong

          by bjssp on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:20:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That poll looks believable... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LordMike, elwior

            ...given all the negative ads on King and the faux positive ads for Dill (from what I've heard, and you can see a few of them on youtube if you're interested), I can see this really tightening, especially if King takes a brunt of the negativity.

            I'm just curious what actual Maine residents are thinking.  Anybody seeing the signs on the houses/cars?  Who feels like they are in the lead over there?  Momentum?

            Gad if Summers takes this seat that would be a freakin shame.

            "If these Republicans can't stand up to Rush, how can they stand up to the Iranians?" - Redmond Barry

            by xsonogall on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:44:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Direct quotes from his campaign (4+ / 0-)

            to my email questions about who he will caucus with:

            Angus' intention is to not caucus with either party.  It will largely come down to getting committee assignments. These committee  assignments are important for Senators to be effective for their constituents.  Assignments are normally given out by Senate party leaders, but Angus isn't sure he has to caucus with either party in order to get committee assignments . . .This is all because Angus is not a good fit in either party: fiscally he is more conservative than the Democrats but also socially more liberal than the Republicans.  As Governor, he sometimes sided with the Republicans, he sometimes sided with the Democrats, but most often worked outside of the conventional structure to build a majority with people from both parties who were interested in moving forward.

            He's not being strategic about winning in Maine, he's arrogant. Angus thinks he'll somehow be a true "Kingmaker" and put together super nifty deals outside the Senate structure.  Anyone here who loved the era of "President Snowe" and "President Baucus" during the early days of Obama's term, have fun with "President Angus."  I would vote for him if he'd commit to caucusing with Democrats, even though I personally can't stand him. If he won't do that, he's too much of a pig in a poke.

        •  He never said he wouldn't caucus with Dems, (5+ / 0-)

          but stated that he wouldn't announce who he would caucus with until after he won. He has to caucus with someone (Senate rules), and it's gonna have to be the Dems because he's endorsed Obama. I don't like the "bipartisan" foreplay he's doing either, but he's the only person who's gonna beat Summers.

          I mean no personal offense when I say this, but you sound like the archetypal low-info voter that causes a split liberal vote---the same split vote that caused Reagan's >50% victories in northeastern states in 1980, D'Amato's victory over Javits and Holtzman that same year, Bush's victory in 2000, Kirk's and LePage's win in 2010, and a whole host of other preventable conservative victories as well as constant GOP chicanery to get multiple liberals on the ballot in close races.

          If you think you've "wrestled" with this, keep wrestling with it, because you clearly don't know who you're being used by.

          Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism.

          by Zutroy on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:34:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  low information? (6+ / 0-)

            I don't take it personally but the criticism blows me away anyway coming from this site - I'm an "idiot," "stupid," "low information," and "used"  . . . All because after a lot of careful research I've decided to vote for the only Democrat in the race. And I dared to state this intent at a site dedicated to electing Democrats.  I have tried to get on board with voting for King, but he's not a Democrat. Period. Full Stop. Not even a DINO. Since when is voting for your beliefs (and for a good candidate mainstream Democratic candidate to boot) a sign of being "used"? This race is in flux - King falls enough in the polls, and he will commit to caucusing with the Dems before November. And then everyone here wins if he wins. And I change my vote.

            •  If Dill were polling somewhere… (6+ / 0-)

              …around twice what she's getting, then I would agree with your logic. In a 33/33/33 race, it would be obvious to vote for the Democrat.

              But I have to invoke Bill Clinton here:  "What new ideas did we bring? I always give a one-word answer: arithmetic."

              And the arithmetic says that in this case a vote for Dill is a vote for Summers, just look at what voting for Kendrick Meeks and Libby Mitchell brought the Democrats: Marco Rubio and Paul LePage.

              How are you gonna feel if Summers is your next Senator?

              Teh stoopidTM, it hurts. Buy smart, union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone: Get your We are the 99% Yard Sign.

              by DemSign on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 10:01:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I said a long time that if Dill were serious (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                elwior, Sherri in TX, DemSign

                about trying to be a senator, she'd use this as one long extended listening tour. Get to know voters around the state and leave them with a positive impression. She will have her work cut in half next time she runs, which could be in 2014 whether or not Collins retires, or even against LePage.

                "The election of Mitt Romney and a supporting congress this November would be a...disaster for America. Think of the trainwreck that has been the Conservative government in Britain since 2010. And square it."--Brad DeLong

                by bjssp on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 11:51:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  he just said it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            from the comment above regarding an email from his campaign...

            Angus' intention is to not caucus with either party.
            your insult was unnecessary.

            America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

            by cacamp on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 09:54:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Two names: Paul LePage and Marco Rubio... (5+ / 0-)

          all the rest is commentary. And King NEVER said he refused to caucus with the dems. he clearly is on the record again and again as saying he would decide after the election.  Since Dill is 20 points behind the GOP and 30 points behind King, you are basically saying you are voting for the GOP. That is fine, but be fully aware of what you are doing. We don't have instant runoff or proportional rep, we have first past the post.  Your choices are King or the GOP...good luck with your vote

          •  Instant runoff voting (5+ / 0-)

            If Summers somehow slips through yet Democrats retake the Maine Legislature, someone should seriously propose that.  If it passes, of course Gov. Shitforbrains would veto it, but if he loses to a Democrat (or liberal leaning Independent) in 2014, then IRV should go full steam ahead.

            37, MD-8 (MD-6 after 2012) resident, NOVA raised, Euro/Anglophile Democrat

            by Mike in MD on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:58:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Clearly, our state needs runoff voting (0+ / 0-)

              because its fascination with independent iconoclasts is having the opposite effect that it's supposed to have. Instead of getting legislators who split the ideological difference with a novel "middle way," we're letting the teabagger minority dictate terms for the state.

              Nothing against either Angus King, or Cynthia Dill. But progressives, seriously: pick one, and run with her/him. And if you want to keep playing Dems and independents against one another on the ballot, amend the constitution so that we don't keep shooting ourselves in the proverbial foot.

              Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

              by Dale on Wed Oct 03, 2012 at 09:48:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I smell a ruse, not a rose... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coaster33, EJP in Maine, kbroers

            Perhaps acadia's real goal is to help the Repub win, by pretending to vote for the Dem -- and hopefully dragging a few percentage points worth of Dems away from King -- when in fact acadia's real intent is to elect the Repub. Otherwise, there is NO good reason to pontificate about the unwillingness of King to declare with whom he would caucus after he is elected before the election.  After all, the moment he declares which side he would caucus with, that is the same moment he loses voters who might otherwise have voted for him.

            I think acadia understands this -- if s/he is as informed and non-low information a voter as asserted here today -- and so voting for the Dem IS a vote FOR the Repub.  And if s/he is comfortable with allowing the Repubs to gain control of the Senate with his/her protest vote to send another Repub to Washington to represent Maine, then the only party likely to gain ground with this ridiculous way of thinking is the Republicans.

            The only reason to withhold support for King is not to assert some moral high ground, but rather to assert the increased likelihood of electing the Republican to the Senate. Thus, in my opinion, I think this posting is a ruse to deflect votes away from the independent and towards splitting the non-Repub vote in order to elect the Repub.

            If I were a voter in Maine, I'd vote for a hedge-hog to prevent the Republicans from gaining control of the Senate. A vain protest vote would be the last thing I'd do. I don't buy the argument that s/he advances. If King is the smart politician he seems to be, he WOULD refuse to say in advance which caucus he would join, and would wait until after the election to then state he is going to caucus with the Dems. He will want a committee assignment, and won't get one if he stays outside the tent yelling, "Hey guys, I'm over here!"

            •  Oh Baloney (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PALiberal1, CocoaLove, elwior, Sylv

              I am a committed Dem, and I've also voted for King in the past. The fact that a bunch of people uprated my concerns about King shows others see this race as in flux, and there are valid reasons to vote for the Democrat. This race is not over by a long shot. The Maine governor's race shifted very quickly in the late days of 2010 (went from a two-way to three-way race in less than two weeks), and that could be happening here too. Many people who thought they were voting strategically in 2010 for the weak Democrat (Libby) to keep LePage out (I was one of them) got burned in that race when the polls shifted very late in the game to the independent.  If Dill does ascend quickly, and King continues a decline in support,  the same folks trashing me now in two or three weeks will be urging Mainers to vote for Dill. Disappointed in the vitriol here. Amazing the number of experts on Maine politics who don't live here.

          •  I agree with LePage, not so much Rubio (0+ / 0-)

            IIRC Rubio got over 50% of the vote right?  Could be wrong, but if that's right, even if Meek dropped out, Rubio would have still beat Crist handily.

            I think Meek also had some times when he had some momentum and some of us here thought he might be able to pull off the miracle comeback win, whereas I have never seen Dill poll well enough to think, hey maybe Dill could take this?  

            While I respect acadia's thinking on this, I really do think a vote for Dill is a vote for Summers at this point.

            "If these Republicans can't stand up to Rush, how can they stand up to the Iranians?" - Redmond Barry

            by xsonogall on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 10:11:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The 2010 FL Senate results (0+ / 0-)

              Marco Rubio - 48.9%
              Charlie Christ - 29.7%
              Kendrick Meek - 20.2%

               If Meek had dropped out, it would have been close but it's too hard to tell if Christ would have gotten all his voters. Still, Christ led in most of the three-way polls till mid-August, after which Rubio led in all of them. Meek never led in a single poll. I was hoping he'd take a hint and drop out, but you know how politicos can be.

               And until we get run-offs established in a lot more states, voters need to be strategic, seriously. Voting for Dill in Maine can lead to Summers winning the election. Sucks for sure.


      •  I agree with Mike on this one. It's like Nader (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        EJP in Maine, LordMike

        I hope you hold your nose and vote for King. As cynical as it sounds. Voting your conscience when it's going to help the Republican win is like voting for Nader in 2000. As icky as King might be, at least there's a chance he'll caucus with the Democrats.

    •  this is the same kind of shortsighted thinking (18+ / 0-)

      that got Maine a Republican governor in 2010 elected with only 40% of the vote.

      ...better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity, than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference. -FDR, 1936

      by James Allen on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 07:47:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Will get some heat for this but i dont really care (22+ / 0-)

      Your being stupid.

      Sorry. Thats how i see it.

      Dill has zero chance of winning. Idiot Democrats voting for her because they dont like king is a sure fire way to hand the seat and maybe the whole effing Senate to the GOP.

      So you think King a joke? Well its him or Summers and that guy is no joke at all.

      Maybe the national and local Dems were too quick to give up on this race but it is what it is.

      Finally. Surely all you need to know about this race is that GOPers are spending money pushing Dill?

      •  National Dems aren't exactly giving up (4+ / 0-)

        They just have to use their money in more covert ways, such as bashing Summers while aiding King without explicitly saying so, as I understand it.  It's a delicate dance but a doable one.

        As for the rest of your post, it's a bit blunt but I agree with the general sentiment.  

        37, MD-8 (MD-6 after 2012) resident, NOVA raised, Euro/Anglophile Democrat

        by Mike in MD on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:00:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  good point (0+ / 0-)

          I should have said given up on Dill rather than the race.

        •  They are doing this already, right? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, EJP in Maine, Sylv

          At least I remember one of these posts saying the DSCC was buying ads going negative on Summers.

          I wish King just stayed the fuck out of this in the first place but oh well.  We are stuck with him.  Worst case, if he caucuses with the GOP, the silver lining will be that he will be their Joe Lieberman/Ben Nelson/Joe Manchin.  Maybe even worse.

          "If these Republicans can't stand up to Rush, how can they stand up to the Iranians?" - Redmond Barry

          by xsonogall on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:27:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Dill is the Democrat in the Race (7+ / 0-)

        This site is dedicated to electing Democrats. And Dill's not a joke candidate -- she has a good, mainstream track record in the Maine legislature. If I'm an idiot for voting for the Democrat in the race who is the only person actually committed to caucusing with Democrats in the Senate, so be it.

        •  King supports gay rights (11+ / 0-)

          and was out front in supporting gay marriage before most were.  He is pro-choice.  He is an environmentalist.  He supports the Affordable Care Act and has supported Obama both in 2008 and now.

          I'm really not sure where you would have a problem with him other than his party label and rhetoric.  He's definitely more predisposed to caucus with us than with anyone else.  Especially since the Republicans are attacking him and we aren't.

          ...better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity, than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference. -FDR, 1936

          by James Allen on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:29:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And King also flirts with making Mitch McConnell (0+ / 0-)

            Majority leader. Even Lieberman rarely "went there". This guy can fuck off, he's a narcissistic piece of shit that cares more about himself than the values he supposedly believes in.

        •  Dill is a joke (5+ / 0-)

          If by joke we mean playing spoiler for the only guy who can beat the teabagger Rethug.

          Yes this site is (partially) dedicated to electing Democrats. And my position is that you should vote for King in order to help re-elect a Democratic Senate rather than vote for the candidate who cant find 20% in the polls in a blue state and whose only possible contribution to the election would be to split the Democratic vote and gift the seat to the GOP.

        •  I'm calling you an idiot.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NM Ward Chair

          ....for not voting for Cthulhu--the evil of two lessors!

        •  Voting for Dill is worse than for Mark Clayton nt (0+ / 0-)

          ME-01 (college) ID-01 (home) -9.85, -3.85

          by GoUBears on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 09:59:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  stick to your guns, the name callers are fools (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          If they had used some logic instead of immediatly calling you names I might agree with them. But since the dumbasses are so fucking arrogant they think calling ugly names is a way to get votes, fuck them. They're the stupid ones in this thread. Even if you decide in the booth to vote King don't let the assholes have their chance to gloat.

          America could have chosen to be the worlds doctor, or grocer. We choose instead to be her policeman. pity

          by cacamp on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 09:59:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Not to be all heaty or anything... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        but if you're going to call someone stupid, as a general rule, your argument loses much of its force if you say "Your being stupid."

        In terms of just what passes for "stupid," one of the points about democracy that is both good and bad is that "the people," as a group, learn from their mistakes.  Why is John Bolton (and John Bolton-style thinking) persona non-grata?  Because Bush II ran American military imperialism, right into the ground.

        In 2008, NONE of the candidates of ANY party was running as the incumbent.  One of my favorite debate moments, ever, was during the GOP 2008, when Romney "introduced" himself, used the word "change" at least a dozen times in less than 90 seconds.  McCain was up next, and McCain said "If you're looking for the candidate of change, that's Mitt Romney."

        Sometimes, you have to vote your conscience, and stop going for the lesser of two evils.  If the GOPpers take the senate seat in Maine, it won't be the end of the world.  After all, look at all the number of times that Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond, and James Eastland were all elected to the Senate.  Can you really look me in the eyeball, and tell me that Charlie Summers is a bigger piece of shit than James Eastland?  Who in the Senate is comparable to James Eastland?  I'll tell you: no one.

        Having to go one step back, to get to two steps forward...that's not always a bad thing.  YES, Bush II was an abomination for America and the planet as a whole.  But would we have ObamaCare, but for the bounce back against that abomination?

        I would never criticize anyone for voting their conscience (unless your conscience tells you to vote for Strom Thurmond.  Then, you should just concentrate on not having children).  If Acadia has looked at all the options, and decided that a vote for Dill is what's best for Maine, then I'm going to say whatever atheists say that means "gods speed."

        The fact remains, the further of the race, the strength of the nation, does not live or die over who's the junior senator from Maine.  

        (Then again, I come from a long line of people who got into fist fights over whether a vote for Wallace was a vote for Dewey....)

        •  huh? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Your argument is that feeling all warm and righteous about your vote (non hand wringer for "voting with your conscience") is more important than the actual result of your vote? And hey its ok cos Summers wouldnt be as bad as all those old racist Southerners!


          Maybe calling Acadia stupid was counter productive and maybe getting a ton of heat on Kos for deciding to do so will make him/her rethink that folly.

      •  what's with the name calling? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Totally unnecessary. Really tempted to toss you a donut.


    •  Uh, that's gonna help Summers win. (7+ / 0-)

      This is a numbers game, and I don't give a damn how fiscally backward King is. If he splits the liberal vote, Charlie Summers will become a US Senator.

      The math in these situations is so goddamn simple, but people ceaslessly manage to screw it up.

      Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism.

      by Zutroy on Tue Oct 02, 2012 at 08:20:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Angus King...what an asshole! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      This guy would be ten times worse than Lieberman. The fact that he'd even consider caucusing with Jim Inhofe, Jim DeMint, and Mitch McConnell should turn any Dem away in disgust. Good job supporting Dill. Hopefully all Maine Dems follow suit, and Angus is left with his <20% of the vote from independents only.

    •  I'm a total outsider to ME, but... (0+ / 0-)

      Wouldn't a pretty good scenario be King winning this election and Dill winning in 2014? Dill has never been above 3rd place in any of the polls.

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