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View Diary: Mitt Romney: Lying to victory (383 comments)

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    •  That's true, but I think that's the decision they (15+ / 0-)

      made not to get drawn into a tussle over bullshit. He probably did miss a few moments, but in the long run it won't matter. Romney is even more of a liar than he was going into the debate, as amazing as that sounds.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 06:55:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a dumb ass decision. (18+ / 0-)

        I can't think anybody would give a guy advice that sounds like "When he says a bunch of things that aren't true right to your face, just go ahead and look down at your podium and remain silent."

        That's a dumb ass strategy. I can't think the Obama Campaign is that stupid.

        I'm more in the "he just wasn't into it" camp than the "this is all part of the plan" camp.

        •  i agree, (6+ / 0-)

          the President looked lost and distracted, his obvious contempt for Romney will not play well.  I cannot believe he was so unprepared, his well known mannerisms should be controlled.
          but my particular problem is why is it that when he is out greeting people one on one on the campaign trail he can speak directly to them and seem to be one of them.
          there are times he needs to speak the language of the american people and when he is speaking to sixty million of them he needs to be that time.  stop the professorial attitude and pronunciations.  (eye)ther, instead of (ee)ther seems affected even to my well educated ear.  thats just one example and it will turn off many voters.
          for the last ten years i seemed to have escaped the constant depression which overwhelmed me for thirty years, all night long i have been sinking into it in the face of the new possibility of a romney presidency.  the american people elected g w bush twice, do not overestimate their ability to avoid electing him (in the person of romney) again.

          ...sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport,whereas Virtue, if a pauper is stopped at all frontiers. from The Sermon, Moby Dick

          by jts327 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:44:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He always looks that way in debates, imo. It's (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GrannyRedBird, vcmvo2, mon, PipeUp

            not his best format.  He thinks too much and see both sides, and he's careful no to get things wrong.

            I go with david54's analysis.  It's impossible to believe that Obama would be "not into it" in a big-time debate.  So they mustve gamed it out.

            Doesn't the challenger always or usually "win" the first debate against an incumbent?  If so and so planned for, we're left with the question What will be the longterm results?  Answer, imo:  Romney looks good and lies constantly, and Obama is a mediocre debater and is botton-line trustworthy.

            Which rep would you take?

          •  Syria and Turkey (0+ / 0-)

            This latest development in the Middle East may have weighed heavily on the President's mind; it may have been the distraction during this debate.

            •  if anyone misread my intent here, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              George Strain

              i just want to emphasize that i am a white, 62 yr old, well educated but poor man. and Barack Obama is potentially the best president of my lifetime, he is unfortunately being sabotaged by the traitorous actions of the republican held house of representatives.  maybe he is just weary.  so much hate has been directed at him, but he goes home to love from his wife and beautiful daughters.  sometimes it has to wear heavy on the heart and the performance.

              ...sin that pays its way can travel freely, and without a passport,whereas Virtue, if a pauper is stopped at all frontiers. from The Sermon, Moby Dick

              by jts327 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 at 09:53:48 AM PDT

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        •  Well, I'm not saying this was all a strategy. I'd (9+ / 0-)

          agree with your assessment to a degree. I do think they planned not to "get drawn out" by Romney.
          I think the Biden debate strategy will be to go hard after gop obstructionism, as Ryan is the posterboy for it, and to pin Romney/Ryan to the obstruction.
          I don't think Obama could have countered a lot of what R said without talking about gop obstruction, and I don't think they wanted O to talk about that because R wasn't a direct party to the obstruction.
          I think they'll probably pin his ears back by the last debate.

          At any rate, we need to move forward and the fact is that Romney lied his ass off, and he did it on camera. So we should make that the takeaway.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 07:50:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe it was a "dumb ass" decision... (0+ / 0-)

          ...but if it was it is done and appears there was limited negative impact.  Most before the debate didn't believe a word out of Romney's mind...but we have second-guessed the-man before and he came through for us. My take is he and his support team will make this work for us. The worst we can do is not correct those willfully-ignorant...that Romney has lied, did lie, and will lie much more in his attempt to become POTUS.  Always Forward.

          Our nations quality of life is based on the rightousness of its people.

          by kalihikane on Sun Oct 07, 2012 at 07:20:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think he missed a LOT of moments (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fiestygrrl, lavonneann

        I thought the President should have called out Gov. Romney more and used his own past to bolster his calling the Gov. to the carpet.

        I would have liked to hear the President address Gov. Romney's history of outsourcing American jobs while at Bain Capital in the opening salvo of the debate. I would have liked to hear the President talk about Gov. Romney's involvement in eliminating collective bargaining rights and his disdain for unions. I would really have liked the President to bring up the 47% comments and talk about how, as President, you have to work for ALL Americans and that Mitt Romney doesn't think it's his job to "worry about those people". And several other things but, most importantly, I think it would have been a very strong statement if the President had said what he said this morning in his closing statement last night:

        That Mitt Romney owes the American people the truth and did NOT give it to them in that debate!

        "This is where some of my dreams become realities. And where some of my realities become dreams." -Willie Wonka

        by green917 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:10:28 AM PDT

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    •  maybe but (38+ / 0-)

      With no moderator of any ability to, well, moderate, and with Mitt's pathological skills at lying, what would have ended up is a he said/he said back and forth which would have accomplished nothing and would have more than likely hurt Obama more because, to put it simply, people expected that of Mittens but not of Obama.  There was absolutely no way in this debate circumstance for that moment when Romney would say "you got me" (verbally or otherwise) because Romney is lacking that gene most people have called shame.  
      Sometimes you win by "losing" and sometimes you lose by "winning".  This in many respects was the latter, or at least I think Obama saw it that way.  It is, I think, not the way he wanted it to go, but he's always someone who plays the hand he's dealt.

      Some of my best trials have been against the smartest, toughest adversaries mainly because they raise my game and it's about substance.  My worst have been against adversaries who, frankly, were not at my level but who I did not respect.  I see that in Obama...he just cannot hide it when he doesn't respect or believe in his opponent.  And that lack of respect (or whatever you want to call it) leads him to lack his mojo.  

      yes, there was no Bain, 47% etc. but here's why IMO: it's already baked into the meme; and rule #1 in any adversarial situation (especially where it's not an advantageous one, like this one with a bad moderator):  you never ever give your opponent another chance to clean up if you don't have to, because he just might do it.  Bringing up those topics in this setting was something Romney was salivating to have happen.  

      He made no major errors.  He hit his points.  He was overwhelmingly still seen as more empathetic and likeable, many of MItt's statements will come back to bite him, and Mitt's style will fall flat at the town hall setting and at the debate on foreign affairs.

      Would I have liked him to rip Romney's head off (verbally?) Yes, but I never expected it, and for the long game it is not worth it.  Plus, he is not good at it.  

      •  Just like a good cross examination (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ProgMa57, Kombema, smartalek, loblolly

        Just like a good cross examination, Obama can use this material as a basis for going after Romney in the next debate.   Obama now has a 3rd party fact check he can hit Romney with if he tells any of these lies in the next debate.

        Also, Obama will be more ready for the tacking to the middle that Romney did.

        That said, there were some easy responses to some of the Romney bull s&*t, but Obama is too much of a Blue Dog to hit Romney with them without carefully planned parsing.  That disappointed me.

        •  Obama wasn't simply looking down to avoid (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lirtydies, hooper, bardgal, loblolly

          eye contact or appearing bored and distracted.  I saw him taking notes.  Lots of notes.  I wish he'd acted with more immediacy on his observations of Willard's BS rather than waiting for fact checkers to point it all out or for the next debate.  I predict a much better performance next time.

          •  I saw Romney furiously writing notes too n/l (0+ / 0-)

            In a world of the blind, the one eyed man is a pariah. Ask Galileo. Ask Darwin.

            by OKParrothead on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:52:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  However - (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, RO45, loblolly

            By allowing the factcheckers to do their thing, he is never sullied with the dirt of the fight.  He artfully let Romney ramble on; lots and lots of rope to hang himself with, and sure enough, Romney will spend the next 2 or 3 news cycles trying to jump through the rings he set on fire in the front window of Politifact, FactCheck, PEW, MSN, ABC, ProPublica et al.  What a show it will be.  By avoiding the meme of 'angry black man' that the (R)s are dying to paint him as, he let Romney shoot his load.  It will make round 2 interesting, at the very least.  And incidentally, Kerry won his first debate, and we all know what that meant. Absolutely nothing.  Use this as a battle cry to get the (D) ground game going.  I got a call today, first one of the season in Indiana.  And just when I thought we had been forsaken...

            The intesity of your opinions is offensive...

            by SomeChic on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:14:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fact checkers will have little influence compared (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              smartalek

              to Obama's failure to counter Rmoney in front of 50 mil viewers.  It was not 11-dim chess, it was a f-up.  Now Obama's got to get back on the horse fast, or everyone's in trouble.

              Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob. -- FDR

              by Kombema on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:48:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I wish I could agree... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              equern

              But Jane & Jo Sixpak don't pay attention to "fact-checkers."
              (We do that -- but we always have to remember, we are not the norm in America.)
              Those few "undecided"s would have been decided by now if they did so.
              Plus, progressive voters need to see someone willing and able to stand up for us, and for the whole citizenry -- and no fact-checkers or surrogates can make the Presidents' utter fecklessness last night disappear from our memories.
              Obama's performance (read:  lack thereof) is of a piece with his choices and behaviors in '09-'10 -- the very reasons so many Dem's and Dem-leaners didn't vote in '10.
              I fear something similar this round.

              •  Agree - Obama Blew A Great Chance To Let The (0+ / 0-)

                undecided voters see what a liar RMoney is, and he didn't. Low information voters probably don't even know what a "fact checker" is. Obama needs to have a strong performance in the next debate. I hope Joe Biden takes a lesson from his lousy performance in his upcoming debate with Ryan.

                •  Its not over. Its our job to spread the truth (0+ / 0-)

                  around. I know I did today. I challenged someone on Romney.
                  I got a chance to tell her what a tax cheat he was.
                  Look up "Double Irish with a Dutch sandwich". It describes
                  Romney's tax schemes to a t.

                  My hubby is a CPA. He went to the computer right away after Romney made a claim that companies don't get a benefit by locating overseas. There is a tax code for just such thing.

                  Right now the IRS is investigating some of his 401K benefits. He is clearly out of the legal realm of how much you are permitted to set aside. If Obama confronts him with this, it will not be pretty. I am sure the IRS is filling Obama in on the whole story. Romney will lose it right in front of millions of people. Obama needs to keep a low profile so that he does not appear viscous. He needs to be cool with "just the facts,man".

          •  Willard? (0+ / 0-)

            Wasn't that a Rat movie?

      •  Moderator was great (0+ / 0-)

        He essentially was not there.  As close to a Lincoln/Douglas debate as we have had in decades.  The candidates asked the questions and discussed and debated, and the moderator was virtually non-exisitent.  he did become the story and did not insert his opinion into anything.

        Obama is POTUS -- he does not need a moderator to "protect him" -- what he needed was to grow a pair and keep up with Romney.

        In fact, Obama has been protected from tough questions since he first ran for president.  The press does not ask any.  His cabinet does not challenge him.

        This is the first time we saw Obama without a teleprompter and having to answer the questions on his own -- with no help from the moderator or anyone else.

        And he came up short.  Sure, he reads a great teleprompter (as Bill Maher Tweeted during the debate -- "perhaps he does need his teleprompter") -- but he clearly was not up to Romney's skill level for a one on one debate.

      •  this is the best commentary I've seen. (0+ / 0-)

        Thanks, kulta1

    •  Exactly what I was thinking. (7+ / 0-)

      Either POTUS or Lehrer could have called Romney on some of this crap.  They're STILL spewing the 700 billion Medicare lie?  The mind boggles.

      •  That was one of the things (5+ / 0-)

        that irritated me the most about last night's performance, I gotta say.

        Even a mild "Your VP's medicare proposal contains exactly the same thing" would have forced Romney to recant on that one or undermine Ryan.

        Arrrggggghhhhhh.

        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy... the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

        by lcbo on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 08:24:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But....It's not the same (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          smartalek

          President Obama ended the tax gift to Medicare Advantage. You have to understand/know what Medicare Advantage IS to get what that means.

          - When you turn 65, you get Medicare A (free) & B (small fee)
          - Medicare pays about 80% of the claim.
          - Private Insurance Cos sell "supplements" which cover the other 20%.
          - Medicare Advantage is a plan where you sign ALL of your Medicare benefits over to the For-Profit Insurance Co for them to then administer for you (which means they can deny claims that Medicare MUST cover.)
          - The GOP (via For-Profit Insurers) came up with it because it For-Profit Insurers told them to.
          - PBO ended that, along with the fraud and other waste - see the BIG STING that happened yesterday - which is just ONE of the many that have already happened. http://www.reuters.com/...

          Ryan basically just wants to put the Insurance Cos back in charge of embezzling everyone's money.

      •  the ads will write themselves. n/t (4+ / 0-)
    •  he said Romney's plan is "never mind" (7+ / 0-)

      How can you debate someone who is on stage lying about his own proposal's and campaign?

    •  Yes (8+ / 0-)

      As an attorney of 25 years experience and a college debater of 7 years experience last night was painful to watch.  I would have opened Romney up like a sharp razor going after a cheap vinyl purse.  I would have used words like lie, rich, greedy and death with a big 47% bow neatly tied around it all.

      I have to hope that someone has a long game figured on this and the fear that Obama would look like a bully controlled their strategy.

      I am however tired of attempting to fill the holes Democrats allow to be blasted into our agenda with the time of my nights and weekends.  Since 2009 politics in this country has devolved into a brutal, manipulative fight Democrats are too pure and special to show up properly armed and trained for.

      The opposition will not be persuaded.  They will only be stopped when they're flat on their back, with a foot on their neck staring up at something heavy and dangerous capable of spreading their brains across the pavement.  They do not understand lesser methods.  This is not a class our education obsessed party can teach.  The Republicans are not going to learn.  Their winning and that is what the money wants.

      William Hamilton practices Law and is a writer and community activist in the Charleston, SC area. He can reached through www.wjhamilton.com

      by wjhamilton29464 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:01:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "When they're flat on their back, with a foot on.. (0+ / 0-)

        their neck staring up at something heavy and dangerous, capable of spreading their brains across teh pavement."

        quote of the freakin day.  I have boots, may I join in the fun?

        The intesity of your opinions is offensive...

        by SomeChic on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 12:18:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I wish I could give this comment 1000 rec's (0+ / 0-)

        But you left out one thing:

        "Democrats are too pure and special to show up properly armed and trained"
        ignores those Dem's and ostensible Dem voices in the coporate "news" media -- far too many of both! -- who are sympathetic to, and even actively working for, the opposition.
    •  True, but here we are so it needs to be dealt with (0+ / 0-)

      Obama blew it and now we need to use Romney's lies.

      I have never been able to figure out if Fox is the propaganda arm of the Republican party or is the Republican Party the political subsidiary of Fox.

      by Dave from Oregon on Thu Oct 04, 2012 at 11:06:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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