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  •  you know, vladimir putin said the next morning (8+ / 0-)

    that he was speaking to obama while he was in denver, the day before.  about syria.

    frankly i don't give a damn about some debate.  so obama wins by 300 electoral votes in stead of 330.

    i do however care about what could shape up tobe a proxy war between russia/china and the nato nations.  

    i really care about that.

    and putin apparently cares who he has to deal with come january, or he wouldn't have stuck hisneck out.  

    “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

    by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 12:38:42 PM PDT

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    •  i don't think i made my point. which is: (10+ / 0-)

      yeah, it was a bad debate, but i think his energy was someplace more important, i actually think he got some pretty heavy news that day.

      “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 12:41:58 PM PDT

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    •  Speaking of Putin (4+ / 0-)

      Maybe  Putin was just gloating over the $5billion arms dealhe's about to sign with Iraq. Russia is still second to the US in overall arms sales to the world but I'm sure Putin is dreaming of catching up.

      If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks. -Frederick the Great

      by Valatius on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 12:50:51 PM PDT

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    •  thank you! i posted wed nite about turkey,syria (4+ / 0-)

      the riots in iran - the instability going on at that exact same moment of the debate and people were whining that obama wasn't "winning"?

      hell, i don't want a performance, i want a substantive LEADER in times of crisis.  romney was a wild-eyed crazed liar on that stage - obama was the friggin' PRESIDENT of this NATION!

      sheesh - agree with you here....

      •  exactly. i don't need bread and circuses. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, Smoh, edrie

        what is happening in that region right now is so frightening to me.  if obama was disengaging to save his energy for the big issues, and not expending it on chasing down rmoney's lies, then to me that is presidential.

         it's time for the american people to drop the idea that this is some form of edgey psychological entertainment and start realising that being informed on the issues is just a sad boring responsibility we all have! like civics class, also incredibly boring. it's not the president's responsibility to chase down the lies we should all know are lies.

        “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

        by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 02:55:41 PM PDT

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        •  what is most worrisome are the riots in iran. (1+ / 0-)

          this hasn't happened since the overthrow of the shah - it is very dangerous for the region - and for diversion, it isn't hard to imagine what the ayatollahs might try, especially with immajennydoll at the head. (sorry - not up to looking up the spelling of that nutcase's name right now...)

    •  Yes, but . . . (1+ / 0-)

      the difference between 300 and 300 evs probably also translates into some downticket races and I would love to see - although I realize it is a pipe dream - a second term with a D House.  

      "Put your big-girl panties on and deal with it." -- Stolen from homogenius, who in turn stole it from a coffee mug.

      by Mother of Zeus on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 04:52:01 PM PDT

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      •  Yeah, really looking forward to (0+ / 0-)

        a new Congress with same make-up as the present one. NOT!

        For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

        by Anne Elk on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 05:17:35 PM PDT

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      •  i hear you. (0+ / 0-)

        “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

        by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 07:03:29 PM PDT

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    •  Putin is not exactly our friend, but it's clear... (2+ / 0-)

      .... he'd rather deal with a US President who's smart and competent, than with someone who's an obvious amateur or worse when it comes to international relations.  

      The "stuff" going on with Syria and in the region right now has potential dangers for Russia, so an incompetent like Unfit Mitt in office would only make the situation that much more dangerous.  It's in everyone's interest to de-escalate it, put out fires, and keep it calm.  Obama can be counted on to do that; Unfit Mitt, quite the opposite.  

      "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

      by G2geek on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 05:06:04 PM PDT

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      •  the thought makes me pee in my pants. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek

        there have been a few times in the last few weeks when i've been seriously scared.  the days after the embassy attack esp.

        per usually, it is not acceptable that a republican should be in charge of our foreign affairs.  it just never seems to work out, you know what i mean?

        “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

        by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 07:05:58 PM PDT

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        •  the embassy attack and the days afterwards had a (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          G2geek

          bit of an 'archduke ferdinand quality' to it... that sense that it could precipitate any  number of unforeseen dominoes tipping over in any number of unforeseen directions.  so does this syrian shelling on the turkish border.

          “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

          by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 07:18:50 PM PDT

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          •  except that the Libya embassy thing... (0+ / 0-)

            .... was a hit on the US, and we can be confident that Obama isn't going to over-react to something like that, even if the nasty Republicans are goading him.

            Syria is a more reasonable cause for nervousness, except that now we hear a) that Putin and Obama talked extensively the day of the debate, and b) Putin is seeking a go-between role in the conflict, which is a constructive role and calls for an emphasis on diplomacy rather than military engagement.  Putin is a rational player, so if he & Obama are talking, we can be pretty confident that the situation in Syria isn't going to get out of control.  Also Turkey's military responses to cross-border shots from Syria have been reasonable & measured, and Turkey is working within NATO guidelines for handling the process.  

            I'm thinking that if you've been feeling like peeing in your pants over the present state of the world, that could be an over-generalization of anxiety from another source, for example feeling nervous about the election.   The feeling arises in response to one specific stimulus, and then becomes associated with other content, in much the same manner as a dead skunk on the road seems to stink up a longer stretch of road than it should, because the smell got into the car when you were passing the skunk.

            "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

            by G2geek on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 07:41:19 PM PDT

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            •  actually i'm very confident about the election. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              G2geek

              i think it's a pile-on of a number of things though, coming out of the mideast coupled with that stupid video. not to mention netanyahu's speech at the u.s. which actually seemed crazier to me than ahmadinejad's.

              yes, turkey and putin are behaving rationally, but they are doing so in an area of the world where rationality is in short supply.  

              it's just too much.  too much unrest in that region.

              “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

              by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sat Oct 06, 2012 at 07:53:15 PM PDT

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              •  there's always too much unrest in that region. (1+ / 0-)

                Ancient tribalisms cemented in place by religion all round.

                High birth rates.

                Population overshoot of resources.

                "Honor cultures."

                Any of these factors in and of itself would be sufficient to destabilize a region and produce an increase in conflict.

                All of them together are a powder-keg.

                And trying to talk sense into people who are intent on exterminating each other, is like trying to convince an alcoholic to stop drinking.  The only thing that does it is for them to "hit bottom" on their own.  

                After the fallout settles, the outside world may be able to get them to change their ways, but not before.  

                Europe went through something similar and it took two world wars to get them to stop.  

                "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

                by G2geek on Sun Oct 07, 2012 at 12:56:25 AM PDT

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                •  well, now i think you've hit on it, the source (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  G2geek

                  of my free-floating anxiety.

                  in my gut i feel it is inevitable that the geographical arena from which sprung the western world's three major religions, will sooner or later erupt in a conflagration that will drag everyone into it.

                  and that that conflagration will make WWII look like a picnic in the park, i.e. that there will be no 'outside world' to watch and observe or help, it'll just be everyone having at everyone else.

                  and i think that because, although many people believe they are done and finished with 'religion' because they believe in their minds that they have worked it out,  what religion is actually lies somewhere extraordinarily deep inside ourselves and cannot be reached to be altered and re-wired by the mind simply saying 'it's not rational'.   and therefore strings will be tugged causing people to act according to hardware they didn't know they had.

                  all wars, all conflicts, indeed all politics, is ultimately about held perceptions of god, beliefs about god, and i honestly think we're going to see the depths of truth about this  someday.  we can't hold it down forever.

                  “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

                  by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Oct 07, 2012 at 11:06:16 AM PDT

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                  •  very well said: every bit of it. (1+ / 0-)

                    All of this, every bit of it:

                    "...although many people believe they are done and finished with 'religion' because they believe in their minds that they have worked it out,  what religion is actually lies somewhere extraordinarily deep inside ourselves and cannot be reached to be altered and re-wired by the mind simply saying 'it's not rational'.   and therefore strings will be tugged causing people to act according to hardware they didn't know they had."

                    1)  "Many people believe they are done & finished with religion": either by way of having a religion and thereby having reached a conclusion to their quest for meaning, or by having rejected religion and thereby reaching a conclusion to their quest for meaning.

                    2)  "What religion is actually lies somewhere extraordinarily deep inside ourselves...."  True and empirically supported: specific regions of the brain are hardwired for "deeply felt sense of personal meaning in relation to something larger than self" and "personalized integrative principle" respectively.  Thus one gets religion, but one also gets devotion to community, nation, performing artists, sports teams, and so on.  

                    3)  "...cannot be reached to be altered and re-wired by the mind simply saying 'it's not rational'."   Same as sexual orientation, which is also hardwired in the brain.  Occasionally people have "conversion" experiences that alter their religious outlook, and this also includes conversion from religious to atheistic or agnostic, and vice-versa, but these are a relative minority.  

                    4)  "...and therefore strings will be tugged causing people to act according to hardware they didn't know they had."   This is an example of what psychology refers to in terms of "latent content and abilities":  stuff that exists in the brain/mind system that is ordinarily not accessed but can be accessed and made active given the right stimuli.  

                    More in my next reply...

                    "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

                    by G2geek on Sun Oct 07, 2012 at 08:46:07 PM PDT

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                    •  i'll read this all more thoroughly in the a.m. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      G2geek

                      we're about to watch my favorite midsomer murder episode.

                      bucolic english villages are my religion!

                      “And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human.” ― William Gibson, Count Zero (-9.75 / -9.05)

                      by doesnotworkorplaywellwithothers on Sun Oct 07, 2012 at 09:25:30 PM PDT

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                  •  strings getting tugged and buttons pressed: (0+ / 0-)

                    You make an excellent point there, that basically a large chunk of humanity could get dragged into a Middle Eastern conflagration by way of having our instinct-strings tugged, regardless of what we normally and consciously believe about religion and how that affects our national/political identification.

                    Though, political leaders do not have to respond to popular sentiment in favor of going to war.   Given rational leadership of the major powers, the US, Russia, and China could very easily stay out of it, aside from supporting proxies by way of one advantage or another (arms sales, oil & other raw materials contracts, etc.).  

                    I'm less worried about Russia and China than about the US in this regard.  Chinese culture has its own long-standing philosophical traditions and is not part of the Abrahamic spectrum.  Russia is most likely to continue along strictly pragmatic lines, Putin and his successors.  

                    But the US: Obama wouldn't fall for Armageddon, but there are many who eagerly look forward to it and would pounce on the opportunity.  This is one of the strongest axes of danger in the culture war, and a strong reason why we need to keep religious extremists far, far away from the White House.

                    I don't think the US would use nuclear weapons even under a religious right administration: the history is too strong around this, that nuclear weapons exist only as a deterrent to nuclear attack.  A president who ordered a pre-emptive strike on a nation that had not attacked us, and was not in position to attack us, would probably face overt mutiny from the military, and on that point we would have to support the mutiny.  

                    But there would be substantial risk of a US combat deployment into a situation like that, using conventional forces, and dragging us into another quagmire we can ill afford in both human and cultural and economic terms.  

                    The most significant risk around any of that, is that the religious right in the US would go batshit crazy and there would be an increase in religious right hate crimes and terrorist attacks.   But even these would not add up to mass casualties in any significant sense.  

                    So, perilous times, but not necessarily fatal for us.

                    "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

                    by G2geek on Sun Oct 07, 2012 at 09:08:15 PM PDT

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