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View Diary: Big Win for Obama if Rick Berg's Views on Abortion Go National (80 comments)

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  •  Plan B or "levonorgestrel" usually (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Damnit Janet, peregrine kate

    Also, fertilization can take place quickly but implantation takes a few more days.

    •  Yes, this is the comment I would also have made. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I agree, ALL objections and barriers placed against women's unfettered autonomy are wrong. But please don't give out misinformation about the differences between conception-prevention and early abortifacients.

      •  Except that a drug that can prevent (0+ / 0-)

        implantation such as the morning after pill or even regular birth control pills are considered abortifacients because they believe that life begins at fertilization, not implantation.  So for these fundaloons even regular birth control pills are abortion pills just like RU-486.

        There is no saving throw against stupid.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 12:34:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No post-fertilization effects from Plan B or Pill. (3+ / 0-)

          The science is solid on this one.

          Look for articles published by a team including a fellow named Croxatto, working out of (I think) Chile.

          •  Are you sure? Not even in one out of a thousand (0+ / 0-)

            times?  Because it was my understanding that about ten percent of the time fails to prevent ovulation and instead prevents implantation.

            There is no saving throw against stupid.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Oct 09, 2012 at 02:37:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That possibility is untestable. (0+ / 0-)

              It does sometimes fail to prevent ovulation, but in that case it just fails. Postcoital contraception has a pretty high failure rate. That's part of the evidence against postfertilization effects; if it affected implantation, it should work better than it does.

              A fertilized ovum (zygote, which then becomes a blastocyst) is a lot like Schrodinger's cat. We can't observe it without changing its status. We have fairly reliable means of determining whether a woman is ovulating and we have fairly reliable means of determining whether a blastocyst has implanted in the uterine wall, but for a week or so between ovulation (which is about when fertilization would occur) and implantation, it's unmeasurable.

              Studies have to rely on indirect measures, like statistical analyses of the rates at which women conceive following use of Plan B before ovulation vs. rates at which women conceive following use of Plan B after ovulation. Studies using that model suggest there are no post-fertilization effects.

    •  Yes, the idea that "life begins at conception" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      snazzzybird, Womantrust

      is completely meaningless.  "Conception" is a days-long process, it is not a single instant.  

      Implantation, as you said, takes several days.  Nobody would consider an acorn a fully formed oak tree.  It still has to be planted in the ground, in the appropriate soil, and given enough water and sunlight in order to germinate. And even then there's still no guarantee that it will actually sprout.

      Furthermore, fertilization itself (ie, when the sperm and egg combine to form a zygote) is not an instantaneous occurrence, either. It takes anywhere from 12 to 24 hours from the time the sperm penetrates the egg, to the formation of what's called a "2pn" or two pro-nuclei cell.  A pre-embryo.  The next day!  Not instantly upon penetration.  And it's still only one cell, with two nuclei instead of one.  Eventually if things go according to plan, this cell divides into two cells with one nuclei apiece, and so on from there.  But it still has to implant (ie, the acorn analogy above) and there are a number of reasons why that may fail to occur.

      So the whole personhood, fertilization bills, aside from being draconian and anti-women, are just flat-out scientifically wrong and uninformed.  

      There simply is no single magical instant when "conception" occurs.

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