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View Diary: Sunday Train: Is Big Oil Striking Back against the California Bullet Train vote? (71 comments)

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  •  Raising the price of everything ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ozsea1, Woody

    ... we eat, buy, or sell by a few fractions of a penny, in the short term, and of a few things that we eat, buy, or sell by more than that ...

    ... but then again, since the point of the policy is to place the price discrimination against heavily carbon intensive production, there is no need to keep the revenue. It can, and should, be redistributed as a social dividend on an ongoing basis.

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    by BruceMcF on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 06:58:40 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I do understand this, thanks but how about (0+ / 0-)

      raising our standard of living and not lowering it? That could be done with technology we've had since 1930, I mentioned it above (with video).

      While the claimed goal is a noble one, lowering carbon emissions, how has it helped the Europeans? They are on the brink of revolution, the money is all gone.  Where did their taxes go? The "social dividend" you mention will never be realized here.  Too many corrupt players.

      That said, we could cut our carbon emissions by 70% within 10 yrs and still maintain our standard of living.

      Thorium energy generation is a viable and realistic solution.  It could power 95% of everything that oil & coal does today.  With the added benefits of no radioactive waste or disasters like Japan and Russia have had. Plus we have over 20,000+ yrs of it all over the planet.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 07:47:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It would be completely detached from ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ozsea1, Judge Moonbox

        ... reality to look at the Europeans putting austerity budgets in place, in some places like Greece massively draconian budgets in place ...

        ... and lay the resulting unrest at the feet of their modest cap and trade program.

        And, indeed, to the extent that thorium production is carbon neutral from mine to generator, it would benefit from a carbon pricing scheme. It would certainly gain a substantial benefit over conventional light water reactors, since there is an appreciable carbon emissions impact in the mining and enrichment of uranium.

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        by BruceMcF on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 08:29:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  We're getting side tracked a bit... (0+ / 0-)

          Europe's cap and trade is lost.  The politically connected get credits for free and to make up for the loss revenues they implemented taxes on airlines. The questions that are never answered, where did the money go?

          http://www.usnews.com/...

          I think your support for HSR is great but do we have to become peasants in the process? What real benefits will it give any of us that can't already be accomplished without massive investments & subsidies?

          http://e360.yale.edu/...
           

          When all is said and done, a cap, or a carbon price, may get us the last few yards across the finish line. But a more oblique path, focused on developing better technologies and strengthening conventional air pollution regulations, may work just as well, or even better.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 09:31:58 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Runaway global warming (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Judge Moonbox

            will make peasants of us all, those that survive, that is.

            Your concern over many comments is noted.

            The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

            by ozsea1 on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 10:20:52 AM PDT

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            •  ??? (0+ / 0-)
              Your concern over many comments is noted.
              Are you implying something?

              So, not seeing the point here.

              Global warming can be mitigated by utilizing things we already have.

              That is still a valid point that gets lost in these "discussions" while NOT destroying our standard of living, what little of it is left.

              And I'm glad you "piped" in here, but I was hoping the diarist would explain.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 10:35:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I believe the point may be ... (0+ / 0-)

                ... that addressing an oil company funded attack on two legislators who voted for HSR as they run for Congress and the California State Senate respectively by acting as if it is a diary about cap and trade seems to be a massive red herring distraction.

                Your links are certainly red herrings. So Nordhous and Shellenberger point out that cap and trade is not a silver bullet solution. What in the hell is that supposed to dispute? Where in this diary and when over the past three years of the Sunday Train has it been claimed to be a panacea?

                The Sunday Train has pointed out repeatedly over the past three years pointed out that there are no silver bullets to address these problems. Certainly trying to "take down" some other supposed silver bullet in order to push a different silver bullet would be knocking down one straw man in order to prop up another.

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                by BruceMcF on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 08:41:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Apologies for missing your point. (0+ / 0-)

                  The comment I originally replied to was not about the politics of big oil & coal but about the costs of using private vehicles.

                  I foolishly assumed, when you chimed in you were opening the door to discuss the issues that brought about those attacks. Their HSR support and Carbon taxing.

                  I never was disputing anything here, I have serious reservations when we have legitimate alternatives already available that never get discussed or "put on the table".

                  Maybe you need to review what I stated and I promise not to ask any further questions of you.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 11:12:50 PM PDT

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          •  1 cent to 1 nickel per pound of carbon ... (0+ / 0-)

            ... will not make us peasants, and while you have made the assertion, you have not presented anything that provides substantial support for the claim, so its just an unfounded assertion.

            1 cent to 1 nickel per carbon, refunded half to individuals and half to communities, with permission to borrow ten years ahead on social dividends to fund GHG reducing capital investments, would make us wealthier, not poorer.

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            by BruceMcF on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 08:30:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Respectfully, I know that at your (0+ / 0-)

              stated prices and my current personal carbon footprint of 32,935 a year. I could be forced to pay from $329 to $1600, each year more.  

              I make $9.50 an hour.  The math is not needed here.  I can't afford it. And I've cut everything that I can imagine out of my life, including my beloved kitties and I am barely paying my rent, electric, natural gas, car insurance, phone, food and no new clothing, no new car, no chance of moving closer to work, no nothing... begging & borrowing money from family to keep my 20 old car running just to keep doing the same thing day in and day out.

              I am mentally, physically and spiritually exhausted.

              My life is not an unfounded assertion
              , as I'm sure it is true for the millions more just like me here in these "united states" that have been forced to the brink of serfdom.  If you haven't been paying attention our standard of living is worse now than when I was born, 40+ yrs ago.

              Have a good day.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Mon Oct 15, 2012 at 11:39:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Unfounded assumptions: (0+ / 0-)

                (1) That you have a higher carbon footprint than average.

                (2) That the program is designed without a social dividend

                (3) That the program won't make it possible for you to cut your own carbon footprint

                (4) That the program is designed with sufficiently low carbon prices that it will not work to reduce the average carbon footprint build into the US economy and

                (5) Simultaneously that the program will be designed with sufficiently high carbon prices imposed up front with little or no phase so that it will have an impact of $329 to $1600 a year.

                You are starting with the conclusion ~ my current carbon footprint times the carbon price is how much extra I have to pay ~ and assume every damn thing you need to in order to get to the conclusion, but the assumptions don't hang together.

                (1) If your carbon footprint is lower than average

                (2) You would get well over half back with a 50:50 social dividend

                (3) And with Connie Mae funding have the opportunity to substantially cut your own carbon footprint.

                Suppose we set a $0.05/pound carbon tax in 2040, imposed at a fifth of a cent per year starting 2015, with a 50:50 social dividend and Connie Mae finance of current social dividend up to 10 years ahead.

                Nobody in the United States would ever have to face a net cost as high as $30 a month except by choice, and large numbers would have a net income from a social dividend system, so would not have a net cost at all.

                We know that its possible to have a much higher standard of living with a much lower carbon footprint, since a homeless person in the US has a higher carbon footprint than the Japanese average.

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                by BruceMcF on Tue Oct 16, 2012 at 11:27:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wow...let's talk then... (0+ / 0-)

                  #1 has no bearing here, it matters not what you, my neighbor or anyone else's carbon footprint is.  You said the carbon taxing would be by the pound.  I used the handy carbon footprint calculator and presented the answer.  

                  #2 Define "social dividend". Do I get a tax break if I have a lower carbon footprint? Can I sell my "extra" to others?  THIS IS THE PROBLEM today with the damn EPA's system. It took me quite a long time to figure out that the fracking "refinery" near Grand Island, NY...near where I roller bladed was allowed to violate the law if they bought "extra" credits.  The system did nothing to stop the crimes from happening, it allowed it. AND AGAIN, where did the damn money go that these companies paid "extra" for? Where do all those fines they pay go?

                  #3 How will the program lower my footprint? Will it give me a new electric car, say the Tesla X?  Will it insulate my apartment so that I do not use as much natural gas to keep warm? Will it create electricity that is green, so that I can keep cool in summer?  I already help by paying an extra $5 a month for "proven green power" from NYSEG.  2400 kilowatts a year.  Not much but I'm dirt poor. Will it give me a new fridge and not the one that is over 20 yrs old? One that would use half the electric if it was?

                  #4 doesn't make sense to me.

                  #5 So, what you are saying is that the first line of producers gets slammed? Doesn't shit roll down hill from there? Everyone and their brothers take a slice of the pie or making excuses for a bigger and bigger piece, right?

                  Your summation of my position makes no sense. I've based my reasoning on what I've been told, by you.

                  Who determines what the thresholds are? What's to stop some future administration from lowering "the average" thus enabling them to keep the dividends to pay for some golf course, football stadium or pet project? What's to stop them from raising the proposed 5 cents per pound to say 50 cents?  At what point do we say we've done the job we need to? Carbon neutral existence means what in reality?

                  Where does the money come from to pay the interest on these future loans? Are they in perpetuity? Where and when is the break even point?

                  While I agree, we all can lower our carbon footprints but comparing our society to the Japanese is disingenuous.  They are totally controlled and subjugated and have a national debt that is 240% of their GDP.  And I do not desire to live like a sardine.  The Japanese have no choices, they lack the physical real-estate.

                  So, how does all of this actually stop global warming again? Why such a convoluted system when the EPA could just as easily raise the new home standards to mandating them to be 70% more efficient? The very real costs about $5,000 extra per home.  All it would take would be proper insulation and design.

                  Why is the focus always on transportation? The largest cost to every person in this country is keeping their homes warm and/or cold, our huge carbon footprints come from the poorly designed homes we live in. Why don't we use the funds to put solar panels on ever home and business? Or build thorium reactors? Or home insulation? Or building design? Or wind turbines? Or geothermal? Or, or a multitude of other options that CAN make a real difference in all of our lives together. AS was the point made by the gentlemen from YALE that you lambasted!

                  Seriously, is it really about reducing global warming and/or lowering our overall carbon footprints? If so, then I'm not impressed.

                  Now do you see why Big Oil & Coal can get away with attacking us??? Most everyone I know is struggling to survive until their next paycheck and these grandiose plans won't help any of us in real immediate ways.

                  I do appreciate you taking time to respond to me.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Tue Oct 16, 2012 at 04:13:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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