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View Diary: At First I Got Upset. And Then I Started Pacing. And Then I Started Crying. (Ta-Nehisi Coates UPD) (133 comments)

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  •  Sounds like a grownup, to me, if she was (10+ / 0-)

    taking the train to work.

    © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

    by cai on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 08:18:55 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  "Sorry" (14+ / 0-)

      You are correct.  I wasn't seeing right in that moment.

      She still sounds wonderful to me.

      Follow me on Twitter. You'll have a lot of fun: @THTBAW.

      by therehastobeaway on Wed Oct 17, 2012 at 08:20:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, a lot of people do see his greatness... (17+ / 0-)

        that is why he was elected and will get re-elected.  Greatness only graces our path so rarely.  The world can see he is a smart, honorable, good man.....what hurts my heart is that the 50% people in his OWN countryman does not.  They only see color.  

        Thank you for this wonderful diary.  I get so depressed when I think these people can sink any lower, they have reached deep into the bowels of their hatred that there can't more vile than this then they do.  Like you said "there" just winning, letting it roll over his shoulders, makes him win and they are the losers.

        •  many lovely sentiments but have to point out (3+ / 0-)

          whenever anyone mislables half the country unfairly

          I do not think it is right or fair to say that half of the country ONLY  see his race.

          More than half the country percentage wise voted him into office, thus proving the likelyhood that they saw ONLY his race improbably at best..impossible?

          thinking that and feeling what that feels like does not help you/us anyway...beyond it seeming factually incorrect (we are a reality based site) and if we do it, we are doing what the Republicans do us in demonizing whole groups of people. We need to use the label "racist" precisely...it is a heavy hammer.

          I hated Romney for his wide paint brush labeling 47% of us, myself included.
          we can't paint everyone who votes against Obama as racist, seeing ONLY his color. Yet we often do.

          I am sorry if you really think this, but am thinking maybe you are just using it as a rhetorical device as some do.

          I promise you though racism taints many white people and they are unaware it STILL does not mean it is the ONLY thing they see...and many white people are hardly racist at all or know how to manage those instilled gut feelings by fighting them.

          reality based site. what percentage of Americans do you really think see only Obama's color and thus cannot see any good qualities? I cannot imagine, in reality, that being over 25%, probably much lower. FAR too high, so depressing and unfair...but not as bad as thinking it's half of us, no?

          There are non racist people who do not vote for Obama because they are factually mislead or have right wing beliefs. Not fair to paint people that disagree racist. That is the cry that the right has...everything is the race card ...when we don't like what Obama does the left "plays the race card". They feel we paint them as racists when they are not> lets not do that and make them right about that false charge.

          •  His race mattered to me (9+ / 0-)

            I considered it a plus.

            Men and women who break barriers have it harder than anyone.  They have to be twice as good just to be seen as equal.

            I do not feel obligated to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use -- Galileo Galilei

            by ccyd on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 06:09:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not sure I understand what you mean. (6+ / 0-)

            And you really can't promise that.  If you acknowledge that racism still taints the perception of many white people, then I don't get how you can parse it out as if it's just a random factor among many.  I have a problem with that logic.  To taint means to poison and that affects everything.  It's not in isolation.

            This is the problem I see with discussing racism.  Some don't or can't understand the full effect of it.

            "No, I'm being judged against the ideal. Joe Biden has a saying: 'Don't judge me against the Almighty, judge me against the alternative." --President Barack Obama, 12/11/11

            by smoothnmellow on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 06:57:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Would like your thoughts on this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Liberal Granny

              Follow me on Twitter. You'll have a lot of fun: @THTBAW.

              by therehastobeaway on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 07:08:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I do not parse it as a random factor (0+ / 0-)

              I am responding to the precise word choice of the poster.

              said that half the country completely wrote Obama off for his color

              You can be racist and NOT COMPLETELY write him off.
              and some are not racist.

              we can't smear half of the country like they do it isn't right and it's hypocritical of us to do it.

              it is not factually correct that HALF the country COMPLETELY writes Obama off because of his color.
              we know this because more than half of the country voted for him (rather of those who voted, presumably representative of the entire country, more than half voted for him)

              Those willing to vote for a Black man for President cannot possibly see ONLY that he is Black now and thus are now not willing to vote for him

              that is my rationale.

              Again it is WRONG To label half the country as completely racist HALF of the country
              part is numbers
              part is that in any one person you can can have racist feelings but not be 100% racist before you dismiss someone (as poster said) ONLY because of color

              If this is not clear I can't explain it further. I am not defending racists I think it is horrible. ANd I viewed Obama's race as a positive on his side as well, agreeing with the poster below.

              I am arguing for reality. Half the country is not so racist that they would not even consider Obama. That has been proven wrong.

              When we are using very loaded terms/accusations such as racism, we owe it to people, at the very least, to be precise with who we use that on.

              When we are not precise we fuel the right wing argument that we use accusations of racism (ie play the race card) unfairly.

              If we use it precisely and only when true we have the high road. People see you smearing half the country unfairly they dismiss your argument completely...many middle of the road people.

              (I do not, I am saying how it works on the average person who cannot look beyond the untrue part of that smear to the parts that are true)

            •  In rereading I see you judge me (0+ / 0-)

              as one of those who can't or WON"t understand the full effect of it.

              Makes me wonder if you read my post at all. I've not heard it often talked about by White people that many if not most are tainted by the poison of predudice.

              What you don't seem to understand is the symantics of what the original poster said. Which was that more than half the country is SO MUCH TAINTED by racism that THEY WOULD NOT EVEN LOOK at a Black man because of color.

              Maybe you do this because you think that racism is and all or nothing thing in White people. I think there are, and were, plenty of (white) people with some predudice that are and were willing to give Barack Obama a look, even some gave him their vote.

              Again, we are reality based. The percentage of Whites that voted for our President in '08 points to that some of them probably had some predudice but still chose him.

          •  I'm at work but wanted to reply to your thoughtful (8+ / 0-)

            comment.  Some quick thoughts on what can and should be a longer conversation.  It might be a little TL;DR but here goes:

            1) You are right to say that it isn't fair to label all (or even half, or even 25%) of white Americans racist.

            2) We really don't actually know how many whites are prejudiced (which is a better word than racist in this context, see below).  

            3) Racism is more than just prejudice.  The old-fashioned racism (prejudiced attitudes, often verbalized) has given way to newfangled racism (deeper preconceptions that limit a group's access to power and slow their integration).  This racism = power + prejudice model has been studied extensively; more accurately, the impact of modern racism has been studied extensively.  You can see it in different bank loan lending rates despite equal credit scores, job hiring and promotion rates despite equal qualifications, incarceration rates for similar crimes, and many other dimensions.

            4) I think it's not fair to say most whites are prejudiced against blacks, but I do think it's fair to say most whites have inherited a fair amount of new racism by virtue of belonging (currently) to the power structure.  The disparities I mentioned above don't 'just happen'; the bank loan officers, hiring managers and bosses, and cops and judges (all of which are mostly white) are affected by the attitudes they inherited, and act, sometimes consciously but more often subconsciously, based on those attitudes.  Otherwise, you would expect things to play out very differently than they actually do.

            5) We don't, outside of academia, or during the occasional flash point, talk about this stuff enough.  That is a great barrier to progress.

            6) Segregation is the single biggest enemy we have.  When people interact, lots of attitudes get corrected 'towards reality' rather than festering 'as per the narrative'.  For instance, the more black people you are exposed to, the more you begin to see black people as individuals moreso than as part of the black race.  This is huge: failures are ascribed to differences in personalities and individual stories & choices rather than reflecting on or confirming notions about the larger group.  This 'perceptual individualization' is a really sweet deal: it frees you up mentally and physically to act without you feeling like your every action is filtered along racial or color lines.  Individuation is a beautiful thing.  This is exactly what MLK was talking about in his IHAD speech.

            7) Segregation is hugely relevant to where we are as nation.  Only 1% of marriages are between blacks and whites in the U.S.  That's amazing for a nation that's supposedly post-racial and in which the majority of people openly say race no longer matters, in dating or otherwise.  It clearly matters.  Porn aside, interracial anything is still pretty 'niche'.

            8) Voting for Obama, listening to John Legend, loving Lebron James, and reading Tai Nehisi-Coates or Toure are not alone indicators of us being post-racial or less racist.  To transcend the color line, we actually have to cross it in our daily lives: in our homes, in our schools, in our workplaces, and in our places of worship.  But people have to actually want to do those things.  They tried to force that with school busing laws in the '60s, and whites fled the cities en masse.  Ironically, the desegregation of schools probably did about as much to boost suburbia as the expansion of the middle class post-WWII (subsidized by government FHA loans and the GI Bill) did.

            But you are also totally right in saying that whole swaths of white people should not be called racists just because they don't vote for Obama (or listen to John Legend, or like Lebron James, or read Tai Nehisi-Coates or Toure).

            Cheers,

            -thtbaw

            Follow me on Twitter. You'll have a lot of fun: @THTBAW.

            by therehastobeaway on Thu Oct 18, 2012 at 07:02:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A 1% group that I am actually part of! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              therehastobeaway, Liberal Granny

              Wow, I didn't know black-white marriages were quite that small of a percentage.  Then again, I only can think of one other couple in my local sphere who is like me and my husband.  I am encouraged to look around the college campus nearby and see a lot more mixed race couples though.  

            •  This is an amazing post, thanks so much (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Liberal Granny

              for your thoughtful reply, even at work.

              I personally am not hugely upset with a poster calling half the country racist as I am sure it feels that way at times. It is just that the left is accused of "playing the race card" ie calling people racist when they are not. They use this I think to dismiss concerns/defend themselves and shut down the conversation. It is very effective.

              That is why it is incumbent on us to be precise in using this very loaded word "racist" I do agree that predudice is a better word for some of it.

              I am in my mid forties and grew up in the North working class. I have life experiences, including but not limited to growing up in the 70s, that have lead to some predudice. I've not seen other White people talk about this. I've had to dig it out of myself and confront it at every opportunity. I HAVE met White people who do not have what I have but they are in the minority and the younger people are the less likely they have such ingrained attitudes.

              There is a test online I took a few years ago that was part of research study that measured subconcious predudice-- I took the racism test and the ageism test.

              I was so sure I'd come out as slightly racist. Ironically I tested slighly PRO Black, lol. Very few White people tested that way. I was very surprised as I know I have ingrained attitudes from childhood I need to confront. Some of these are from my own emotional experiences with Black people as childhood that I can cognitively override, and do. Maybe it's working.

              I wish I remembered the name for that kind of testing. Pictures flash on the screen of different kinds of people associated with different words...how long you hesitate to pick the correct photo tells researchers if in the moment you have to override an association they present (such as "poverty" and "Black" or wise and Black vs Smart and White or dirty and White...just made that up) to act.

        •  Your lips to God's ear-Reelect Pres Obama! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Liberal Granny

          Let us hope that he is re-elected and that the Evil out there is once again defeated.  I'm doing a lot of praying!

          The President seems like such a man of principle and integrity.  I hope he can pull this off.  

          It also hurts my heart that 1/2 of our countrymen and women don't see that and believe all the lies about him.

          God bless President Obama, I hope America makes the right choice Nov. 6th.

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