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  •  This kind of dismissive, arrogant shit: (0+ / 0-)

    "Reminds me of my son when he was 3 ... screaming and holding his breath because I would not get the bigger more expensive toy "

    doesn't help your case.

    “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

    by jrooth on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 06:33:07 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  How so? This is *exactly* what the Republican (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheDuckManCometh, fhcec

      spin machine is doing.

      Just look at what the Republicans are all hot about.  They sound exactly like a 3-year old throwing a temper tantrum over not getting a toy or treat.

      I'm surprised we haven't seen a Republican literally fall to the ground screaming and kicking their feet.

      •  Read the comment I replied to again. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pragmaticidealist, Rick Aucoin

        It isn't about Republicans.

        Look, I'm 52 years old and I have voted at every single opportunity since I became eligible to vote in 1978.  I was very politically engaged even before that - going back to the McGovern campaign when I was 12.  I take voting very seriously.

        And you know what?  Every single cycle I've heard the same shit - that this is the most important election ever and no matter what problems I may have with the actions of Democratic candidates I have to shut up and under no circumstances consider withholding my vote let alone speak or write about that option because the other guys are much worse.  That if I try to use the one lever I have to try and move a Democratic politician in the correct direction then I'm a screaming baby.  That I shouldn't worry because once our side gets elected they'll do the right thing so just shut up and vote.

        The cumulative effect of this idiotic crap has been that our politics have moved dramatically to the right over the last three decades.  Richard Nixon would be on the left fringe of Democratic elected officials if he were alive today and advocating the policies he advocated as president.  It ain't working, people!

        And independent of the massive stupidity of the strategy of voluntarily emasculating ourselves politically, there's a moral dimension to this.  As I said I take voting very seriously.  I believe that if I vote for a person I make myself part of the things they have done.  And a number of things President Obama has done are morally and legally offensive to my core beliefs about the Constitution and civil and human rights.  I vehemently disagree that deep moral qualms about making myself part of actions I can only term evil or which I deem fundamentally destructive to the principles of our nation equates to a childish tantrum over a favorite toy.  

        “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

        by jrooth on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 08:07:08 AM PDT

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        •  You (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fhcec

          are ok with helping put Romney in office and put more corporatists in the Supreme Court?

          Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known---Carl Sagan

          by LibChicAZ on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 09:46:40 AM PDT

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          •  Please point out where I said that. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PennBrian, Rick Aucoin

            I am so tired of this bullshit.  If you can't address what's actually said then at the very least have the courtesy not to make shit up.

            “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

            by jrooth on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 10:12:25 AM PDT

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            •  those who cannot see an inevitable result of their (0+ / 0-)

              argument are ... doomed to live in a corporatist world with second class citizenship for women and the poor...

              "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

              by fhcec on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 12:23:36 AM PDT

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              •  Precisely my point (0+ / 0-)

                but applied to your argument, not mine.

                Again:

                The cumulative effect of this idiotic crap has been that our politics have moved dramatically to the right over the last three decades.  Richard Nixon would be on the left fringe of Democratic elected officials if he were alive today and advocating the policies he advocated as president.  It ain't working, people!

                “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

                by jrooth on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 08:32:47 AM PDT

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        •  I agree that people who would like to move the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fhcec

          political conversation need a means to do so, but a couple of weeks before the election is not the time to do so. This isn't encouragement to get in line and be a good soldier. I get sick of that, too. But we, meaning people who are frustrated with the rightward drift, need a real strategy. Letting Romney get elected is will not advance any causes I believe and, frankly, I'm afraid of getting in a hole so deep we'll never get out of it.

          After the election maybe we all need to do some serious thinking about how that can be done.

          •  Once the election is over (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PennBrian

            they don't need us any more.  At least until the next election cycle, which once again will be the most crucial election ever and no matter what our objections we must keep quiet about them and just support the Democrats because the Republicans are so much worse.

            Lather, rinse, repeat.  Forever.

            The bottom line is that the only time we have any influence on our "leaders" is precisely at the peak of the election cycle.  And the only influence we have is the threat that if they continue their relentless rightward drift they won't get our money or our votes.

            “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

            by jrooth on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 11:29:16 AM PDT

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            •  I feel so reluctant to get into a feud with (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jrooth, Purple Priestess

              someone I probably agree with on most things, so please understand I'm saying what I'm saying as someone who is probably on your side and I'm not saying it with any rancor. I felt exactly as you feel for a time and after the 2010 elections I no longer think that this is a viable strategy. I'm not sure what is. I think some real brainstorming needs to be done on this. Maybe we need more grassroots efforts. I'm really not sure. I'm not saying that you have to be a pure Democrat and always support them. I just don't see any good coming taking a stand on the presidential election in this particular year. We need a longer term strategy. I totally understand your frustration, but I can't see any good coming out of voting third party at this stage.

              Maybe you need to get more involved at the party level or work with issues groups if the party has you that disgusted.

              •  I am spending my time and effort this cycle (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FourthOfJulyAsburyPark

                volunteering for Lois Frankel. Last cycle I volunteered for Obama but when asked this time I responded that they really don't want me because I will inevitably say what I really think and in large part that is not flattering to the president.

                Florida, as always, will be close and trust me I'm far from oblivious to that.  I sincerely don't know yet how I will vote in the presidential race yet.  It's not like I haven't stained my soul in the past with votes for the least of two evils.  But I don't know if I can do that again.

                “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

                by jrooth on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 12:02:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Try to keep in mind that it's not about your (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fhcec

                  soul; it's politics. Politics, as they say, is the art of the possible. We need to find a way of changing what is percieved as possible.

                  •  I can't agree with that. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FourthOfJulyAsburyPark

                    That may be my failing, but it's who I am.  When I vote for someone, I make myself part of what they have done and will do.  I can't see it any other way.

                    “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

                    by jrooth on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 12:18:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  seems like there can't be very much that (0+ / 0-)

                      you support, since there's very little in this world, at least in my experience, that so closely approaches the perfect, or even the acceptable.

                      I rarely find something that is in the realm of humans I couldn't critique to make it better, but it's just as often the best available choice in this day and age.

                      When it comes to the beauty of waves on the beach, or a sunset, or a snowy hillside, or a hummingbird, then there's no need for critique.

                      But in the world of people and man made things... everything's up for critique and improvement, isn't it?

                      "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

                      by fhcec on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 12:31:30 AM PDT

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                      •  You appear to have a comprehension problem. (0+ / 0-)

                        Here's what I wrote just two comments up:

                        Florida, as always, will be close and trust me I'm far from oblivious to that.  I sincerely don't know yet how I will vote in the presidential race yet.  It's not like I haven't stained my soul in the past with votes for the least of two evils.  But I don't know if I can do that again.
                        If you see insistence upon perfection in thwt then I just don't know what to say.

                        “What’s the use of having developed a science well enough to make predictions if, in the end, all we’re willing to do is stand around and wait for them to come true?” - Sherwood Rowland

                        by jrooth on Sat Oct 20, 2012 at 07:21:20 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  And it goes a step further (3+ / 0-)

          There is, indeed, something deeply morally offensive in the suggestion that we should "hold our breath and vote" for the candidate du jour just because s/he isn't the opponent. However, there's a next step that we must take to really be acting and voting morally, IMHO. We must work diligently to improve the choices presented by the parties with a chance of winning elected office.

          I have on occasion voted for a third party candidate. In each instance I had solid reasons, generally built around the refusal to accept a poor or morally questionable major party candidate and the availability of a better alternative. I eventually realized, however, that in preserving myself from one moral menace I was opening myself to another: each time I voted for a third party candidate, the worse of the two main party choices won the election -- and won due to votes siphoned from the better choice by the best (but unelectable) choice. To the extent that I allowed the system to produce candidates that drove me away, I had to accept some responsibility for the practical effects of my choices.

          The corollary of this moral calculus is clear: we must work to improve the choices presented by the major parties, at least until such time as a third party or independent candidate is viable. Unless and until we do this, there is no true moral rectitude in voting for the candidate of conscience who cannot win.

          So my take is this: Vote for whoever you want to have the job, regardless -- but work hard to ensure that the candidates who have a chance to win are the best available options. Even if that means working to improve a party you don't wind up supporting at the polls.

          "Do it in the name of Heaven; you can justify it in the end..." - Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter

          by pragmaticidealist on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:33:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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