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View Diary: Clemson Fans Boo the POTUS on Military Appreciation Day (289 comments)

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  •  "A" culture, yes, I agree, as a South Carolinian. (11+ / 0-)

    And, yes, it has to be dealt with, and we are dealing with it, and working our asses off to change it, very literally. But, a similar culture exists in EVERY state. No state is 100% free from it. No state is 100% perfect.

    I don't think anyone is disputing that it exists in South Carolina, or that real stupidity is present here. Those of us arguing in this diary are trying to point out the error of painting the entire state with a brush of prejudice and contempt. It's like doing the same thing with ALL Americans because George Bush was re-elected in 2004. I am not happy about the state of SC right now, just as I wasn't happy about the state of the US then. But as Kossacks are not denigrating ALL US Americans because of the reflection on ALL of us upon Bush's 2004 re-election, they shouldn't slam all of South Carolina because of the virulent elements we concede are present here. What is served by promoting that argument? Do you think it helps those of us making the fight here? What is your recommendation? Forced expulsion of South Carolina from the Union? Stripping South Carolina of its 8 votes in the Electoral College? What works, in your opinion, to address the situation?

    Before answering, I would like to mention for your consideration a comparable incident, that outraged many Republicans in South Carolina during the Bush years, when Bush visited a local university. A group of Furman University professors attending the Bush conference, took off their shirts to reveal t-shirts, on which was printed: WE OBJECT, to the policies and travesties committed by and in the name of George Bush.

    Here is the Crooks and Liars account of the incident, with pictures.

    The difference is, after that, no one was slamming the entire state of South Carolina and ALL of its people as inhuman liberal fanatics because of the actions of THOSE protesters. No one then was painting ALL South Carolinians with the same brush because of that incident. No matter how angry they were about it, as we are angry about this.

    I am not defending in ANY way the repugnant actions of those who disrespected the President at Clemson. But make no mistake, it reflects on THEM, and not everyone in the state, the same way that a speeding driver's actions reflect on that driver, and not on ALL drivers.

    I understand the frustration, believe me. I live it in a very visceral way. EVERY day. Neither I nor any liberal South Carolinian I know denies the existence of the... disadvantageous political culture here. But we see no purpose served by painting the entire state with the same brush of disgust and contempt. And we don't think it is appropriate.

    If you can explain to me why it is appropriate, I'd love to understand this better.

    "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT

    by BeninSC on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 10:07:07 AM PDT

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    •  The brush is too broad. (6+ / 0-)

      I agree. But the electoral votes from GA, AL, MS, LA, and TX that reliably go to the GOP in every single presidential election represent a real threat to change our government from a democracy to a theocracy. That is 100 electoral votes guaranteed for the GOP. I read this in another dkos diary but I'm not a historian or political scientist and I'm not sure of the history of the South Carolina's electoral votes.

      I know people here in NH who would welcome a theocratic president. As long as he represented their particular take on Christianity. They attend a giant thunder-dome mega-church (part of the Foursquare movement) by the way.

      When I explain that theocracy would bring violence and strife, sect against sect, alliances between various sects, Catholics vs. protestants, etc. etc., the willfully ignorant Christian extremists just shake their heads and say something like, "Well I don't know how God will bring his church together but he will."

      They are guilty of arrogance, superstition, and ignorance of history. Hundred Years War anyone?

      Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

      by FrY10cK on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 11:03:40 AM PDT

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      •  Oops. That should be Thirty Years War. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BeninSC, KathyinSC, Steveningen, Puddytat

        Like I said, I'm not a historian.

        Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

        by FrY10cK on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 11:07:42 AM PDT

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      •  I am not arguing that a solid block of electoral (7+ / 0-)

        votes poses a problem, every election. (Though every one of the states you mentioned did go for Jimmy Carter in 1976).

        My feeling is that even a solid block like that does not pose that much risk for changing our government to a theocracy. It's too radical. I also think that the perception of just HOW radical it is, with the Tea Party and everything, is increasing all the time. I see pushback against it even in South Carolina, from people who traditionally vote conservative. If we think there are 'purity trolls' among our ranks, that is nothing compared to the purity trolls on the right.

        South Carolina's Sr. Senator, Lindsey Graham, is at great peril in his next primary (2014), because his voting record is only wrong about 75% of the time (according to the National Journal, with MY interpretation of a conservative vote as being 'wrong,' where Jim DeMint, our Jr. Senator, is wrong just about 100% of the time). I think it is pretty much assured he'll face a primary challenge, and there is no guarantee he'll survive it.

        The nation notices things like that, and the real world INFLUENCE of South Carolina politicians tends to subside with their increase in extremism. As South Carolina's influence wanes, people will begin more carefully considering the value of such ineffective 'purity,' of such extremism. This is certainly not apparent in incidents like at Clemson, but I do see this, too, all the time, and I'm encouraged by it. It is easier to HOPE when witnessing things like this.

        Even so, the point of my last comment was not so much about the problem of a 'solid South' voting block as it was that there are powerful and (in my opinion) GROWING liberal elements within the state, and slamming the entire state for things like at Clemson are not productive in any way.

        I am not defending the overall radicalism here, in any way. Just arguing against the behavior of trying to HIT all of South Carolina because of the behavior of some, here. It just isn't productive in any way, no matter how good it may feel.

        "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT

        by BeninSC on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 11:49:10 AM PDT

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        •  That sounds like good news although that block (6+ / 0-)

          of states voting for Carter in 1976 gives me no comfort. And I like me some Jimmy Carter. He did a very brave thing four months after being inaugurated in 1977. It cost him a re-election and now all politicians refuse to tell Americans things they do not want to hear. But that's a part of history that is dark in the shadows. Don't know if it'll ever be truly told what with the Iran hostage crisis and beatification of Reagan and all.

          Anita Bryant and the rest of that block voted for him because he was an evangelical Christian although his version involved sheltering the poor not shooting them a'la Ted Nugent and Chuck Norris.

          ...arguing against the behavior of trying to HIT all of South Carolina because of the behavior of some, here. It just isn't productive in any way, no matter how good it may feel.
          I'm not instigating this argument because I want to feel superior. I'm doing it to elicit information.  I'm worried. I want the religious extremists to be exposed earlier rather than later.

          The following paragraph might get me in trouble. So be it. I feel a bit like I'm living in Germany in 1936. There is a large block of angry unstable people who want to feel superior in a very bad way. Some of them will shoot doctors and bomb medical facilities to further their cause. They now have representation on the national stage: every TV channel, every radio station.

          I'm tired of being scared. I've been scared ever since Bush 43 announced he would use public funds to finance "faith based initiatives."

          I'm glad to hear from you. I don't have much confidence that you represent a significant percentage of GA, AL, MS, LA, and TX. I know you're from SC, I'm just expressing some concerns.

          Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

          by FrY10cK on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 02:21:00 PM PDT

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          •  I think a good deal about Germany during the (7+ / 0-)

            Weimar Republic. We visited Weimar when I was a student in West Germany in 1976 (the year of Jimmy Carter, coincidentally, enough!).

            Germany in that era was characterized by its extraordinary political fragmentation. That a party like the Nazis was able to gain power was due to some extent to that fragmentation. There were approximately 40 political parties at time time, each sharing a relatively small piece of the pie. Too, Germany was severely strained at the time by the war reparations they were having to pay after WW I, and the Nazis used that stress and discord to attain power.

            I would not contend that there are no stresses in today's world, no terrible Weltschmerz. But a party like the Nazis gains power in part through great secrecy, which is far more difficult in a society in which anyone with a cellphone can take a picture and tweet it world-wide in an instant, even if the mainstream media abdicates a large percentage of ITS responsibilities. Too, there was no comparable history of an occurrence like the Nazis to warn against consequences like those when they took power. And no blog of very intelligent, VERY aware citizens ready to shine a light on the rise of such a movement.

            I am certainly concerned about political developments in our society today. But I don't think there is great risk of a return to a state like existed in Germany in 1936. Not that things could not become very very bad.

            I am not advocating complacency, not in South Carolina, not in the nation at large. But I am not afraid. And one reason I am not is because of things I see happening in this state. We liberals do not enjoy the success we WANT to enjoy (we WORK to enjoy!). At least, not yet. But we do see the fruits of our work among our fellow South Carolinians. I fight this fight every day, and so do many of my friends and colleagues and fellow Democrats (and there are a LOT more of us than a story about the Clemson debacle can suggest).

            You know, booing isn't a clear behavior. I was not at Tiger Stadium for that game - I am not a big Clemson fan, nor a big football fan - but I can well imagine that some boos were directed at those booing. I can guarantee you that even within that stadium, in this conservative state, there were citizens as disapproving of that behavior as there are in this diary comment thread. I do not know how many, I do not know how vocal they were, but I know they were there, just as we're here. And I'm sure some of them expressed their disapproval, as I would have, as you would have, as Grizzard would have.

            There are good-hearted people in South Carolina, and as bad as the state's recent voting history has been, even here there is opportunity. I know this to be a truth. And I am very determined. Not remotely close to despair or giving up. And many of my fellow Democrats are just the same. We will NEVER give up. Even if people ostensibly on OUR side denigrate us and lump us in with the crazies and the fanatics.

            Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
            (Disputed attribution, but possibly Margaret Mead.)

            "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT

            by BeninSC on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 03:51:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Great history lesson. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BeninSC

              But this:

              ... the mainstream media abdicates a large percentage of ITS responsibilities.
              has already happened. Most people do not get their news from Chris Hayes, Bill Moyers, or Rachel Maddow. They get it from Good Morning American or Regis & Philbin or whatever that crap is called now. They watch that pap and think themselves informed.

              And the financial hardships that will set Americans against each other for survival, those are on the way due to global resource depletion (theoildrum.com) and climate change.

              So I am not reassured by your excellent history lesson.

              Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

              by FrY10cK on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 07:19:25 AM PDT

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              •  It was not my ambition to reassure you. That, you (0+ / 0-)

                have to do for yourself. I was just discussing some of the factors involved, and explaining how I don't find the scenarios historically equivalent.

                Yes, I did say that the mainstream media abdicates much of its responsibility. But, the evolution of the Internet and the blogosphere limits the degree to which that facilitates the developments you fear. Even the major networks now MUST monitor Twitter and the major blogs, for fear they'll miss essential stories and perspectives. They can't afford to miss those and see a competitor beat them to it. I am talking about the major networks other than Fox. (Obviously they have an overt political agenda.) Further, they have more to lose than you may imagine in the event of a government takeover of the airwaves, which would HAVE to happen for a Nazi-like scenario to occur in this country. Otherwise the opposition has too many opportunities and avenues to coordinate that opposition.

                I am fairly bullish on our future.

                "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT

                by BeninSC on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 05:13:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks, you give me hope. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BeninSC

              I moved to Colorado from SC around 4 years ago. I still think of SC as home, and visit often, most of my loved ones still live there, and I care deeply for the place.. There are pockets where you can feel things are different these days; I was in the Elmwood neighborhood in Columbia not long ago and the vibe was very progressive, open, very ethnically diverse, lots of gay couples and young gay families. I was very surprised how comfortable and normal it all felt.

              The other side is still louder and more numerous, but in time, I do feel like the younger generation will bring on a different atmosphere.

              I went on some of the Clemson football "tiger talk"websites....you can see for yourself there are some Obama supporters, mostly however there are those who don't like Obama, but didn't like the booing, either.
              http://www.tigernet.com/...

              •  I don't think it will just be the young moving the (0+ / 0-)

                state forward. I just say that because I am no 'spring chicken!' ::smile:: And I have EVERY intention of playing my role in the evolution of this state's political consciousness and awareness.

                I appreciate your comment, susan, and may your next visit to this state be the best you've experienced in a very long time, under a second Obama term, and a more useful Congress!

                "The opposite of war isn't peace, it's CREATION." _ Jonathan Larson, RENT

                by BeninSC on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 05:16:04 PM PDT

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        •  Good point, Ben. (8+ / 0-)

          And please, everyone understand that in 2008 votes for President in SC went 54% McCain and 45% Obama.  When you consider that less than 60% of registered voters cast a vote in that election, McCain only got 32% of registered voters.  I'm not sure what percentage of eligible voters are actually registered, but the point becomes that it's not as completely overwhelming a majority of right-wing-nuts in SC as it appears.

          Voter apathy is a huge problem, nationwide.  I truly believe that if everyone eligible to vote would vote, republicans would be outnumbered 5 to 1.

          I remember when the lottery was on the ballot in 1998, we elected a Democratic governor (Jim Hodges) and re-elected a Democratic senator (Fritz Hollings).  The lottery brought out thousands more voters than would have otherwise voted.

          As far as the idiocy at Clemson Saturday: Shame on them!

          Dum Spiro Spero - While I Breathe, I Hope (SC's state motto)

          by SCVeteran on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 04:03:14 PM PDT

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    •  I'm nominating this entire thread (5+ / 0-)

      to Top Comments. That was one of the most thoughtful exchanges I've seen.

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