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  •  I should also point out (5+ / 0-)

    that any study "completed in 2006" is irrelevant to Ohio because most Ohio counties just started using the machines in that year's election. Many, including Cuyahoga, quickly abandoned them.

    And it's important to note that fears about what COULD happen without safeguards should never be morphed into belief hat it DID happen or WILL happen. That is the slippery slope too many here are on.

    Take the "Can't(or)" out of Congress. Support E. Wayne Powell in Va-07. http://www.ewaynepowell.com/

    by anastasia p on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 03:50:31 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  exactly: could versus did or will (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2, highacidity, Febble

      It works both ways: some people construe arguments that something could happen as evidence that it did, and construe arguments that something didn't happen as assertions that it couldn't. Makes it kind of hard to carry on a conversation, think clearly, or act wisely.

      On a completely different note actually relevant to the diary: a friend of mine recently got to meet a few members of the observer delegation. She says they were terrific. I think it's pretty cool that 40-some people are willing to spend over a month in the United States learning about our election systems and observing the process.

      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

      by HudsonValleyMark on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 04:05:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you from Ohio? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      glorificus

      It did happen. In Ohio. In 2004. With electronic voting machines. The "Help America Vote Act" required states to use automatic voting machines after the 2000 election.  "Glitches" where who knows how many votes disappeared into the ether were prevalent across the country. Diebold was one of the big names of that election.  Ohio, in 2004, did end up having some kind of a recount, but the SOS chose which 'random' counties to count. I am shocked that Ohio still has a such a problem with clean elections, but I suppose people there don't really care.
      There have been so many studies done, about  the ease with which someone could tamper with voting machines.  I'm sure you can find one easily. I think Everest was one, UConn did one,  the Brennan Center for Justice at New York School of Law

      Do a search on the 2004 election and Ohio.
       http://www.commondreams.org/...

      •  what happened? (0+ / 0-)

        If you have evidence of electronic voting fraud in Ohio in 2004, you should present it.

        We've only been discussing this since, oh, 2004. (Actually, I joined DKos in spring or summer of 2005.) The arguments should be getting better by now. An article about Wally O'Dell's fundraising letter doesn't cut it.

        Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 02:20:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Seek and ye shall find.. (0+ / 0-)

          but if you can't bother to do that, perhaps you would like to read the report from Congress?

          Preserving Democracy "What went wrong in Ohio"
          http://www.nvri.org/...
          or perhaps one of these?
          http://newsanalysis1.tripod.com/...

          http://www.motherjones.com/...

          http://archive.truthout.org/...

          Obviously, you are not interested in the plethora of information easily available to you. I hope your attitude, and knowledge of how elections are conducted in this country,  are not indicative of those of the general public.
          •  I've studied this issue since November 2004 (0+ / 0-)

            Have you? It doesn't take knowledge, understanding, or even interest to copy and paste four links, two of which point to the same source, and one of which predates the 2004 election and obviously doesn't prove fraud in it.

            Here is my detailed critique of the RFK Jr. article. As for the Conyers report, if you tell me where you think it presents evidence of electronic voting fraud, and how, I'll be happy to respond.

            I'm pretty used to people who obviously care a lot less about this issue assuring me that they care a lot more. But every once in a while I am pleasantly surprised. So, what've you got?

            Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 09:24:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You wrote a nice.. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HudsonValleyMark

              critique of RFK's article.  I find your conclusions, no more definitive than his. I have never been interested in polling, as I have a deficiency when it comes to comprehending how it is done. I' have been interested in how our elections have been conducted since 2000, and what has transpired since HAVA was passed. By the time 2004 came around I was fairly well versed in the studies conducted that proved the vulnerabilities unique to the different voting machines.
              Fortunately for me, I live in a state where we have not experienced the multitude of problems with voting, that Ohio has had. I do not see how anyone can come to any definitive conclusion as to the amount of votes lost, the amount of people unable to wait in line, or the number of purged voters.
              After Russ Feingold introduced a bill, that would allow states to upgrade their voting machines to include paper ballots and increased security, and the bill went nowhere I gave up. I no longer care if other states run crappy elections. It is obvious that those state government's and the people who live in those states don't care, so why should I? It is almost humorous, how no one cares about the security of their elections until the month before the election when nothing can be done.  It doesn't really matter if the machines have been hacked or not. The possibility, has the result of finding any result questionable, regardless of who wins.
              I know that most states have taken measures to secure their elections, which is why, it is so surprising that Ohio, with all the issues they've had, still uses the Hart.
              What I find offensive in this thread, is reading denials of the existence of problematic elections, due to the proven vulnerabilities to each voting system, and the inexplicable incidents of "glitches" that occur.
               

              •  thanks for looking at it (0+ / 0-)
                I find your conclusions, no more definitive than his.
                Well, we're doing pretty different things. He is strewing questionable factoids hither and yon, trying to convince people that they add up to something. Then he hedges his overall conclusions, which makes him sound sort of cautious if one doesn't notice what he was doing the rest of the time. (I think a lot of people wouldn't notice unless they really fact-checked.)

                All I can say is, I've waded through piles of data and arguments, and I don't think there is any good evidence for electronic voting fraud in Ohio. That doesn't prove that there wasn't any. But it would be nice to kill the myth that anyone who doesn't believe that the election was stolen just hasn't looked. (Of course "stolen" isn't the same argument, although there is overlap.)

                We can't honestly reach definitive conclusions about past elections where the evidence is necessarily incomplete. That would probably be true even if the election systems were good at the time, but they weren't all that good. We need to work on building systems that provide more definitive results -- and there, it seems that you and I are saying much the same thing.

                It is almost humorous, how no one cares about the security of their elections until the month before the election when nothing can be done.
                To be fair, probably most people don't think about it -- but, yeah, I know what you mean.
                It doesn't really matter if the machines have been hacked or not. The possibility, has the result of finding any result questionable, regardless of who wins.
                I wouldn't go that far. But the less evidence we have about who "really" won any particular election, the worse off we all are.
                I know that most states have taken measures to secure their elections, which is why, it is so surprising that Ohio, with all the issues they've had, still uses the Hart.
                At least Ohio has paper ballots and paper trails statewide. That puts them ahead of a bunch of states, sad to say. I don't think the Hart systems per se are worse than the other systems, although I generally think that DREs (even with paper trails) are worse than scanner-based systems. And no system is perfect on its own. Probably the first thing I would like to see Ohio do is audit some of the paper sooner.
                What I find offensive in this thread, is reading denials of the existence of problematic elections, due to the proven vulnerabilities to each voting system, and the inexplicable incidents of "glitches" that occur.
                Discussions of this issue on DKos generally have a fair amount of talking-past. I can tell you what the talking-past looks like from my vantage, but maybe that isn't even helpful. At any rate, I can't think of anyone here who would deny the existence of problematic elections. We (collectively) can argue very sharply about what "problematic" means....

                Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
                Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                by HudsonValleyMark on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 03:47:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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