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View Diary: Daily Kos Is in Denial About What We Face. (227 comments)

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  •  "Remain focused, seek facts, ask questions" (8+ / 0-)

    Practice what you preach?

    The only polls to be concerned with are unadjusted exit polls on the day of the election - actual voters saying how they actually voted, not "potential" or "likely" voters discussing their intentions.
    Again: do you really think that Kerry won Minnesota, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania by 14-15 points each? If so, how do you get there? If not, then why do you keep touting exit polls?

    I'd love to have a serious discussion about election fraud, but you keep hiding in plain sight.

    Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
    Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

    by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 04:46:53 PM PDT

    •  As noted above in response to a different comment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      G2geek

      I don't know - and can't know - whether and to what extent the official results in 2004 were legitimate.  What I do know is that exit polls are one of the standard methods of detecting election fraud internationally, and whatever discrepancies there were in 2004 were not followed up.  

      Now, I believe I've asked you before - and you never seem to answer - whether or not such discrepancies should be rigorously followed up, or whether we should just take your and the Republican Party's word that the problem is with the poll rather than the reported results.  It seems an awful lot to take on faith, and demands on our credulity seem to happen rather more often on behalf of Republican "victories" than we ever have to demand of them.  Sorry, I'm just not a "man of faith" - at least not that kind of faith.  I don't leave convicted burglars unattended with my wallet or my democracy.  

      Voter suppression is treason.

      by Troubadour on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 06:08:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  no, you don't know that either (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Quicklund
        What I do know is that exit polls are one of the standard methods of detecting election fraud internationally
        What do you mean, "one of the standard methods"? This is based on your extensive reading of OSCE and Carter Center reports?

        Or maybe this is something you've read in various articles in the last eight years, and at some point you decided that it was ground truth?

        I think it's amazing that you have no answer to my questions, at all. Troubadour, what are you afraid of?

        Now, I believe I've asked you before - and you never seem to answer - whether or not such discrepancies should be rigorously followed up, or whether we should just take your and the Republican Party's word that the problem is with the poll rather than the reported results.
        I think you are smart enough to understand that your apparent inability to answer my question has some bearing on yours. But let me spell it out for others.

        No, I don't think exit poll discrepancies should be "rigorously followed up," because I infer from evidence that exit polls aren't reliable. I'm not aware that "the Republican Party" has a position on that issue, although that's a colorful ad hominem, to be sure.

        That's why I work on actual election verification mechanisms. It should be frigging obvious to everyone -- even if they somehow convince themselves that the exit polls are accurate -- that they aren't a sufficient election verification mechanism. It should also be obvious that they aren't a necessary mechanism: what we really need is to be able to establish how voters actually voted. And, of course, we have to help ensure that voters are able to vote in the first place.

        This diary offers no ideas about how to do any of that. It mostly waves its arms about how we should be ready for anything, after the election. Which is pretty damn close to not ready at all.

        Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
        Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

        by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 07:57:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  here's your verification mech for you: (0+ / 0-)

          Paper ballots of sufficient size that they can be read from a distance with a close-up from a PTZ webcam.

          Hand-count the ballots in a room that is equipped with enough cameras that there's one to focus on every counting table.

          Broadcast the camera feeds on the local public access cable TV channel as well as via internet to anyone who wants to watch.

          Low tech voting, low tech counting, high tech surveillance by the citizens watching the count.

          Solved.  

          Yes, you can mark up my consulting fees by a reasonable percentage when you submit the invoice to whoever you're working on verifiable voting mechs for.  

          "Minus two votes for the Republican" equals "plus one vote for the Democrat." Arithmetic doesn't care about their feelings either!

          by G2geek on Wed Oct 24, 2012 at 10:48:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  shrug (0+ / 0-)

            If people want to do 100% hand counts with lots of cameras, I won't stand in the way. I agree with the principle that more "eyes on" are better.

            But I think Minnesota's experience shows that a good paper trail plus good recount and audit laws can work pretty darn well. To me, the shame isn't that we aren't doing 100% hand counts with hundreds of simultaneous video streams; it's that so much of the country is so far behind Minnesota, for no good reason. Granted, Minnesota is an unusually cool state, but a lot of its best practices could be transplanted (with improvements) without much effort.

            Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
            Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

            by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 05:11:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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