Skip to main content

View Diary: CT/CD: Conspiracy Theorism vs. Crime Denialism (50 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  no hyperbole here (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    johnny wurster, blueness

    Troubadour repeatedly asserts as fact that the Wisconsin recall was rigged, his evidence is poor, he has been given reason why his evidence is poor, and he has no reasoned response. Moreover, he seems to regard his critics as objective enemies and the rest of us as sheeple. So, he does jam the CT buttons pretty hard.

    From the other diary:

    Scott Walker demonstrated how effective the principle can be when deployed in election fraud: If you're going to rig a result, it's more powerful to be totally outrageous and implausible when the public isn't prepared for it - the crime is so brazen that no one dares to even mention what's right in front of their faces; the media declares Game Over; the opposing candidate instantly finds themselves abandoned, labeled a Loser, and told to concede quickly to avoid further disgrace; and by the time cooler heads have a chance to organize inquiries, the public has by and large moved on, and cocktail circuit pundits dismiss even obvious questions as "sour grapes" by deluded partisans unworthy of coverage.
    Umm. what?

    See, this is not just a statement of opinion. This is nonsense on stilts, shrouded in FUD fog. He has hurtled far past the point where we can actually discuss whether there is any evidence of rigging in Wisconsin.

    He has hurtled to a place familiar to people who have argued with 9/11 Truthers: 'it's obvious that the towers were brought down somehow.' That insistence on the obviousness of the non-obvious is a hallmark of CT, as is the imputation of bad motives or "denial" to people who point it out.

    This diary begins:

    I've never known why, but for some reason irrational beliefs have always infuriated me
    That's one thing we have in common, but he doesn't seem to be applying it to himself. He can call it "Crime Denialism" to notice that his arguments that Wisconsin are stolen are lousy, but I do notice.

    Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
    Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

    by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 03:52:29 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  "This is nonsense on stilts"- or it's evidence of (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joieau, Troubadour
      •  Here on DKos one has to be (2+ / 0-)

        very careful when insinuating that things are not totally in accord with whatever the duly approved 'official story' happens to be about any big event or ongoing fraud. There is reason for that, in focusing participants toward the goals of the site itself, which is not to become just another conspiracy hell-hole. That's one of the first things new participants learn - no matter what your personal opinion may be about any given big event, no matter how strongly the 'official story' is condemned by actual members of the 'official' investigations, it must not be said here.

        None of that means conspiracies don't happen or that 'official stories' aren't poured into pre-shaped containers. It just means it's not an acceptable subject of discussion here.

        My impression is that there is a group of users who believe it is their job to enforce this edict, and who occasionally go overboard while doing it. Troub pushed the envelope, HVM is here to make sure no one does the arithmetic. SOP.

        •  umm, whut? (0+ / 0-)

          Election fraud is not a prohibited topic here. I've discussed it extensively myself, much to Troubadour's dismay.

          The community standard, which is variously interpreted and very unevenly enforced, is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

          Troubadour appears to be saying, inter alia, that "Walker rigged it, this I know, for the exits told me so." It's a bad argument, and people are entitled to say so. Moreover, it's bad in a way that is commonly called CT. I would be a lot more impressed with Troubadour's performances of outrage over that label if he made better arguments.

          Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
          Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

          by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 08:59:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know zip about (0+ / 0-)

            the Wisconsin recall other than that Republicans fielded some fake candidates and got caught at it. But I have seen what happens to people who suggest there are real problems with voting machines and strongly suspect that both elections involving Bush The Shrub were stolen.

            As I said, users here are free to believe as they choose about such things (and 9-11, Magic Bullets and the Grassy Knoll, and whatever other conspiracies are out there simmering still), they just are not free to talk about it here.

            •  It's outrageous that you would class (0+ / 0-)

              election fraud in the same category as 9/11 Trutherism and JFK assassination conspiracy theories even as actual acts of organized Republican election fraud are being uncovered and diaried about.

              Voter suppression is treason.

              by Troubadour on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 01:17:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Excuse me? (0+ / 0-)

                I very clearly elucidated exactly what I have seen on this website per the whole CT ban, and the users who believe it is their job to enforce the edict. It happens so regularly that I'm surprised you are unaware of it. And it's been happening for so long that if you were to casually mention Bev Harris in passing the whole lot of 'em would land on you with cleats post haste.

                I have some personal experience with disenfranchisement in two states (family members) in 2000, and outright vote-flipping fraud by Diebold in 2002 and 2004. I live and vote in North Carolina. This is the only state I know of that told Diebold to take its glorified etch-a-sketches and leave, never come back. I just know better than to say anything specific about all that, because I've been told too many times that it's not allowed here.

                And yes, I have been told that it's exactly like 9-11 and JFK. You don't have to agree (I don't), I'm just telling you what I've been told.

            •  kos has called to ban DREs (0+ / 0-)

              What happened to him?

              Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
              Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

              by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 03:57:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

                •  Direct Recording Electronic voting systems (0+ / 0-)

                  Current-generation DREs usually are touchscreens, although Hart systems use a dial. Older DREs (still in use) have push buttons.

                  My point is that it's pretty much site consensus -- if not policy -- that "there are real problems with voting machines." And, in generally, not much happens to people who "strongly suspect" that the 2004 election was stolen. Not much even happens to the vast majority of people who state it outright. (I recently encountered a TU who basically thought that everyone here agreed with that.)

                  However, I am given to understand that some people who made a habit of stating it as fact without supporting it -- often in a "wake up, sheeple!" tone -- eventually got banned. Maybe TruthIsAll was in that category, for instance, or maybe he was just such an a-hole that he was banned on that basis. Dunno. I really have no idea who was banned for election fraud CT. Do you have people in mind whom you think got a raw deal?

                  Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
                  Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                  by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 25, 2012 at 04:11:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Naw, don't even remember (0+ / 0-)

                    their pseuds. Just saw a lot of it. Had comments about my experiences gang-HR'd, justified by the purported ban (because who would HR a story about a mother who had been President of the League of Women Voters for years, then got her last vote in this world taken away because she was in a wheel chair with an oxygen tank and some Republi-Jerk decided to challenge her not having current picture ID (which wasn't even required)? Or a daughter who'd voted in every election since 1992 get mysteriously 'lost' from the rolls in between the primary and the general, but who demanded to be allowed to vote anyway - using an 18th century law that was then turned into same-day registration across the state. These are just anecdotes, not (one would think) subject to HR.

                    Or stories with sourced links about how state races got thrown into months-long turmoil due to Diebold vote-flipping in 2004, in a state with voters who routinely split their ticket because we LIKE Democratic state government even while going Republican in the federal races (leftover Jesse Helms machinery, I think we finally cured that once we got rid of Diebold). First state to show Diebold the border and tell them never to return. But that wasn't allowed either, as if NC's awful experience with them wasn't "extraordinary" evidence enough.

                    Since I don't see the cleats gang here now, perhaps we can hope they've all been banned for crossing the line too many times, pissing Markos off, or simply wandered on in their travels.

                    Oh, just so you know, after getting rid of Diebold and instituting early voting plus same-day registration so MORE No'Cackalackians could vote instead of fewer, we have paper ballots. Not just better than the glorified etch-a-sketches, also much better than those damned punch-cards.

                    •  there's a "spitting on returning vets" flavor (0+ / 0-)

                      to a lot of these reminiscences about how bad things used to be. Unfortunately, while I can find an intact version of at least one string of anecdotes under your previous user name, I can't read the disappeared version(s), so I have no way of judging why people might have construed them as CT.

                      It's true that some people on both (or several) sides seemed to think of themselves as posses tasked with HRing and/or cursing their opponents out of existence.

                      Now, there's this:

                      1. The Dem establishment got together with the 'Pug establishment to divvy up some seats, so it would look like Dems came really close to taking the House, but not quite. The Senate was never on the table....

                      4. Electronic voting machines were programmed to shift somewhere around 1% of the votes (or not count them) for Dems. More than that ~2% wiggle room would be way too obvious, but in actually 50-50 districts/states that would be enough. This has been part of the programming from the beginning. What happened is that voters so overwhelmingly voted Dem that it beat the machines at their own game - our margins were actually 1-2% higher than tallies showed.

                      Pretty wild claims to make without an iota of evidence. Yet, nobody HRed that diary. So, you can't say all the times were bad.

                      Incidentally, I've seen lots of diaries with "sourced links" that actually came nowhere near supporting their claims. Too many sources just aren't reliable -- and some people who cite sources don't think very hard about what the sources do and don't support. That isn't to say that anything that got HRed must have deserved it; things don't work that way.

                      Election protection: there's an app for that! -- and a toll-free hotline: 866-OUR-VOTE
                      Better Know Your Voting System with the Verifier!

                      by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Oct 26, 2012 at 04:01:47 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site