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View Diary: Romney campaign: Don't worry, Jews, you can vote for Romney because Roe v. Wade (105 comments)

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  •  I actually love ... (8+ / 0-)

    that the Romney campaign is wasting any resources on Jewish voters. Go for it, guys. No, seriously. Please. Totally a good use of energy to try to woo that voting bloc. /eyeroll

    •  Largely a waste of energy, but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Liberal Granny

      not entirely. There are mainstream (vs. "fundamentalist") Republican Jews; e.g., see this comment.

      •  There are something like under 25% of Jews (4+ / 0-)

        who vote Republican; Obama won 77% of the Jewish electorate in 2008 against McCain. That makes Jews a higher solid Democratic voting block than anyone but African-Americans (about as high as young people, IIRC, and higher than Latinos). Additionally, Jews only comprise 2% of the U.S. electorate. That makes this potential electoral gain for Romney in about the .5% range.

        Would I love to see Romney waste money on this Jewish voting bloc? As a Jew, I so very much would!

    •  I don't. There are 3 orthodox Jews I can think (11+ / 0-)

      of in the community I loosely belong to that will be voting for Obama - counting myself.  There are a lot more than 3 in that shul alone that will be voting for Romney.  There are 2 other shuls within 2 blocks that are heavy Romney supporters - all orthodox.

      The right wing Jebus machine has convinced the orthodox communities that only THEY can really make the world a safe place for Jews by loving Israel and hating Muslims.  Nevermind their eventual plan for us - since we think it's crap - we're not afraid of it.  Fools, we are, yes?

      These orthodox people believe they will be elevated - respected, admired, allowed to flourish - because they are orthodox Jews.  Really.  They think that means something to Christians that will give them autonomy once the Muslims are gone.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 12:57:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ummm..... (7+ / 0-)

        Once the Muslims are gone, who do these fools think will be next?  I mean, I'm not trying to go all Godwin here, but haven't we already been down this path?  The fundies don't want Israel or Jerusalem for Jews.  They want it for Christians!  Unbelievers need not apply breathe!

        Time travel opportunity. Must bring your own weapons. Your safety is not guaranteed, I've only done this once before. Call 866.555.1212.

        by IndieGuy on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 01:37:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I know, my point exactly. (8+ / 0-)

          But you have to understand what is going on culturally for them - it's not the same thing for you.  They just got clued in that there is all this really interesting cool stuff they can do and read about and do some more that suddenly gives them a MUCH easier view of the world.  

          They're given permission to look down on other people.  And that's not actually a valid Torah position, but it'd rife in the orthodox world.  I know people who honestly believe that when Mochiach is revealed the Nations will serve us like slaves.  People with engineering degrees who not only believe that but that the world is slightly less than 6000 years old.  They weren't raised that way at all - they EMBRACED it because they were unhappy with how things were going in their lives already.

          They're given permission to become as insular as possible as fast as possible - and helped to do it.  Every step you take further to the right, every step you take to conform is praised and you get more involvement.

          Fundies got nothing on Jews for time you can spend dedicated to religion.  NOTHING.  We're twice or more a day every day, and that's just the baseline for the shul, not daily practise at all.  

          They also have nothing on the influence a rabbi can have over an individual.   I know people who consult their rabbi about everything.  Brands to buy. Schools for the kids. How much to speak to a spouse. (Really.)  Intimacy issues.  These men know as much about your marriage as you do if you're a "good talmid" in some communities.  They are literally checking for permission on changing how they wipe their asses.  <--- NOT kidding.  My cousin and I had a whole discussion about how he discussed ass wiping and the Shulchan Aruch (one of many guides to living a kosher life from respected Torah sages) with his rabbi and CHANGED the way he wiped his ass as a result.

          And part of this concern with things like the proper way to wipe your ass is from halacha - what Sharia was modeled on.  But they don't see the connection between the two - or understand that Christians have no real equivalent and don't "get it."

          It never occurs to them that Christians aren't doing it for them.  In their eyes, Christian support for fundamentalist Judaism is a sign that Moshiach is on the way.  So the ba'al tshuvahs bring Christian cultural ideas with them - extreme = better - and make the whole mess worse.  They seek out the most restrictive opinion because it appears to them the "most authoritative" - if it's hard it must be right.  Nevermind the point of halacha itself is that literalism is bad, m'kay?

          They are fully expecting nothing to happen to THEM because they Christians said it would be ok and they love us.  They have no idea what that means, what Christian theology expects to happen - not a clue.  And since they think it's all false anyway - they don't care.

          So it doesn't occur to them that we're next, they just think they get first class flights to Israel courtesy of the USA - or that they don't have to leave and everything will just be nice because the Muslims are gone.

          Complete fantasy thinking - and it's all very real to them.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 02:42:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That doesn't make sense to me. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IndieGuy, CherryTheTart

            When Israel became a State, the very orthodox didn't want to accept it because there wasn't supposed to be a state until the Messiah came. Now, they are supporting Christian belief because they believe the Christians will protect Israel? Very strange.

            •  I'm not talking about Israel (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              IndieGuy, CherryTheTart

              I'm talking about Americans who do not believe anyone would ever MAKE them leave America.   They don't want to make Aliyah and actually LIVE in a foreign country with another government and learn another language (Biblical Hebrew is NOT modern Israeli Hebrew, though they are related, as one was used to help build the other) and live in tiny apartments with weird laws.

              They just want to be Jewish.  Here.  And have their communities given free autonomy to live as they see fit without Christians nosing in on it - but to get rid of the Muslims.

              What they don't understand is that their close friends and allies the Fundiban want them to LEAVE.  They honestly think that the Muslims are the problem and it has nothing to do with Christian theology having plans for Jews.    They think they will leave when Moshiach comes and everyone sees JEWS ARE REALLY RIGHT.  So the Christian problem doesn't exist in their universe, only a Muslim one.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:33:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I should point out there is a difference (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Liberal Granny, CherryTheTart

              between Israel the country and Israel the IDEA.

              The country is a good start, but it's secular.  It allows people to actually live the way they want to - and while that's nice and all, it's only temporary as far as these people are concerned.  But it's partly in the right spot - and it's full of Jewish people so you have to support them, even if you don't support the state.

              They are actively looking forward to Israel the democracy becoming Israel the kingdom.  With a king who actually has power of life and death over people.  REALLY.  And since there are people who are known to be of the line of David, there are eligible candidates in the minds of people who think that way.  People who can PROVE they qualify, BTW.

              So they aren't planning on leaving until THAT Israel is here.  Sure, visit the one now, send the kids for some schooling - but that's not the Israel they are waiting for - it's just the place holder Israel until everyone knows they are right.  And then, well Christianity and Islam won't exist anymore and be an issue, because everyone will know they are right.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 05:15:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  um ... (0+ / 0-)
                it's secular.  It allows people to actually live the way they want to
                Nnnnot entirely.  Israel-the-country does have a state religion, and there's a lot of bad feeling there right now about how the Orthodox interpretation of said religion is the dominant one.

                But that's another discussion for elsewhere, maybe.

                •  it's secular in the sense (0+ / 0-)

                  no one is forced by the government to be frum - and there are other religious options besides Judaism.  No one loses citizenship or goes to jail for changing religions. The whole issue of halacha and rabbis and who is and isn't subject to their belief in their own authority is a completely different cultural matter.

                  Gay rights.
                  Gay marriage.
                  No compulsory religious services or education.
                  No forced conversions to Judaism.

                  That the shuls Israelis prefer not to attend are orthodox ones... that's a cultural issue, not a government one.

                  And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                  by Mortifyd on Wed Oct 31, 2012 at 11:26:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  gay marriage? (0+ / 0-)

                    Gay marriage isn't currently legal in Israel.  I don't think any non-religious form of marriage exists.


                    It's true that the state religion is pretty lenient about a lot of things -- no forced conversions yes, and no forced adherence to religious law in most cases -- but it still isn't secular in the sense that American law is.

                    •  my bad. you are correct. (0+ / 0-)

                      I meant to say serve openly and got my brain stuck - marriage is indeed a freaking mess in Israel.

                      My cousin has been married... 3 times now I think to his current wife because rabbis can't get the paperwork right...

                      America isn't as clearly secular as we pretend to be either.  I think it's a valid statement to call Israel a secular democracy and well within the norm for democratic countries -  England is hardly a fundamentalist theocracy despite having a Queen and a state religion.  

                      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                      by Mortifyd on Wed Oct 31, 2012 at 01:24:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Very interesting post, thanks for all the detail. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mortifyd, IndieGuy, Liberal Granny

            Goes some way to helping me understand things I haven't been able to get.

            •  I feel torn (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              417els, Liberal Granny, CherryTheTart

              These are my people.  I love them.  But damn, sometimes they are so stupid it hurts.  Because I do "believe" in a sort of way in something I call G-d and I do prefer the framework of my cultural inheritance to try and bring meaning and value into my life and the lives I touch - I can't just declare them idiots and write them off.

              But the mindset that seems to be expected to go with valuing my culture and tradition makes my brain bleed.  Because I can't do it.  I can't believe in a tiny humanlike being that plans rapes for little girls and uses sentient beings like toys - that just doesn't compute in my system of reality.

              So I end up being a "bad" Jew in a sense because I refuse to toe the line as it were.   Observant,  but not part of the community.

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:50:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm Reform but know some Orthodox Jews that (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                led me to believe that "fundamentalist anything"  just messes with the mind. I do not understand why certain rabbis have so much power, kinda like a Jewish Pope figure.

                I am a Jew by choice with two daughters who are, of course, Jews, taught by Rabbi Schaalman in Chicago. When he retired my oldest daughter was head of the temple's Youth group and then of all Chicago, which mean pretty much all Illinois.

                She was invited to speak that Saturday and what she said made the beloved rabbi put his face in his hands and sob, as did most of the congregation. (He wanted her to become a rabbi.)

                That illustrates why I am Reform and not Orthodox. But I would also like to add the Rabbi would have been appalled if anyone ever came to him to find out how he should wipe his ass. All the rabbis at temple would feel that way.

                Even on the High Holidays for the kid's service the new rabbi's sermon was how to be a good Jew, which pretty much talked about how to care for others, that it was a duty, and that sermon matched many, many of the Democratic platform.

                •  I'm orthodox. That's just where I need to hold (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CherryTheTart, Liberal Granny

                  but I don't live in the orthodox community on purpose.   I don't need them to be frum, peer pressure is not a selling point for me.

                  I have yet to find a reform or conservative shul that is cool with an actual orthodox person as a member - and I've yet to find a reform or conservative shul I'm personally comfortable enough to want to go to.   I've been treated worse by reform Jews for being orthodox than I am by frum Jews for being a democrat.

                  I'm not going to stop observing the way I believe is best for me - and that limits my choices to a certain extent.  I am more comfortable with separate seating - and that's MY deal.

                  And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                  by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 11:14:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And that's why there are choices. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    •  the odd thing is... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Liberal Granny

                      I would probably be much happier and participate more in a reform or conservative shul - if there was separate seating. LOL

                      I just really need to sit with the dudes or I pay attention to NOTHING.  Even with a talis on.  I'm not scoping out people, just - SQUIRREL! when it's not a sea of black suits and butts.

                      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                      by Mortifyd on Wed Oct 31, 2012 at 11:02:51 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You poor thing. My Orthodox friend's sons feel (0+ / 0-)

                        the same way. I have large problems with this view, yes, feminist's problems. Either women are equal or they are not. I fear what I say to you below will offend you. If it does, know that I do not mean to offend you.

                        Just so you know that it is your responsibility and not any woman's. OK, then I won't invite you to our temple because pretty much everyone's equal there, and no segregated seating.

                        I went with my friend to her first grandson's bris, held in their temple. I was very taken aback to sit behind a screen so I wouldn't contaminate any man's mind (yes, that's the reason) and could not see a thing except the smallest glimpse into the temple proper. All the women did was chat about other things while it was all going on in the main part of the temple.

                        I see that segregation as a bad thing for the women, you see, so I did not go again. I have a belief that I have a right to see the main temple, sit in it, and participate.

                        I know there are arguments about women being more holy or something but I do not buy it. I know women intimately and I can assure you that we are not more holy or don't need to even see the worship part of temple.

                        I will say to you what I said to my friend's sons: Get a grip.

                        •  *sigh* (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Liberal Granny

                          As I stated previously, my discomfort with mixed seating is my issue.  However, unlike you assume, it has nothing to do with sexism and everything to do with my ADHD and anxiety issues that are private.

                          I'm so glad I could give you the opportunity to display exactly why I don't feel welcome in addition to my own concentration issues - putting up with being lectured with what is wrong with being orthodox.

                          I actually hold that women should have the space and right to their own minyans without men.  With me sitting behind the mechitza at a girls Bas Mitzvah if invited.  That both sexes need private space with their own for religious and cultural harmony as well as together.  

                          But you didn't ask me or know that or any of the other weird positions I hold by - you told me to get a grip after calling me a sexist.


                          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

                          by Mortifyd on Wed Oct 31, 2012 at 05:41:59 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  I keep thinking some Orthodox Jewish support (0+ / 0-)

        might be down right now where I used to live, near Monsey, given Romney's desire to end FEMA and Monsey being like 32 degrees tonight, power down, tons of trees down, I hope that gives some of the largest Orthodox Jewish voting bloc a LITTLE food for thought.

        A few of my friends are Orthodox (mainly converted though) and are "for Obama." I can't much speak of the more insular Orthodox community even though I grew up right next door to it and also, a Jewish gal.

        •  probably not. (2+ / 0-)

          Having lived in Monsey - they will still have their hands out and vote for Romney because they are afraid of Muslims.

          They don't expect the Goyim to help them anyway.  That's why they have Hatzolah and Mogen Dovid Adom and Free Loan Societies and everything else - because they already assume that they are hated for being Jews and have to help themselves.

          I know a convert for Obama who is frum.  He's also excluded from the community because he is vocal about it.

          I lived in Monsey and left because it was too confining.  I know other people who left because it wasn't confining ENOUGH.  Monsey is a weird place.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:54:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  guh (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Liberal Granny

        my BF, who was raised ultra orthodox in NY, is a republican... mostly it seems because of the republicans' willingness to bomb the middle east.

        I'm working on him, but it may be futile. He's not voting this year at least!

        Republicanism: the political theory that the poor have too much money and the rich do not have enough.

        by bacchae1999 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:00:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't love it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mortifyd, CherryTheTart

      I worked with many orthodox/chasidic Jews who swallowed the FOX cum about Obama being "Muslin". They HATE the President, and will crawl into the fundies bed even knowing that they only support Israel in order to bring about the "2nd Coming" and either their conversion or slaughter.

      "My case is alter'd, I must work for my living." Moll Cut-Purse, The Roaring Girl - 1612, England's First Actress

      by theRoaringGirl on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:01:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Baltimore Jewish Times has been running LTE's (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        devoting many pages to unedited letters.  The Republican letters are really ignorant, based on the fear and the lies they've been fed, crap about Obama's wedding ring saying "There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is His Prophet" and changing his name from Barry to Barack, and association with known Communists while in college and similar nonsense.  No doubt these are the right wing frumie Orthodox.  Last time I went to one of their shuls was in July 2011 and I was treated to a sermon denouncing gay marriage.  (Although what really intrigued me about the shul was the hundreds of black hats on the coat racks in the hall.  They all look alike.  How do these men know which black hat is theirs?)

        "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

        by Navy Vet Terp on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:16:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  our names are written inside :P (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Navy Vet Terp, Liberal Granny

          And we pray with our hats on over our kippahs - so hats hung up mean it's not praying time.  :D  We also do things like rent coat and hat space in the shul to members to raise funds for things.  You get a little plaque under your hook.

          I know a lot of people who believe that garbage, and most of them are not only not born into it, but a large number of converts.  They want that approval they are REALLY REALLY accepted in those communities.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:40:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  On another subject (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Would you be interested in writing a d'var Torah for the Street Prophets and Elders of Zion groups?

            "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

            by Navy Vet Terp on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 05:00:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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