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View Diary: Romney campaign: Don't worry, Jews, you can vote for Romney because Roe v. Wade (105 comments)

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  •  That doesn't make sense to me. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    IndieGuy, CherryTheTart

    When Israel became a State, the very orthodox didn't want to accept it because there wasn't supposed to be a state until the Messiah came. Now, they are supporting Christian belief because they believe the Christians will protect Israel? Very strange.

    •  I'm not talking about Israel (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IndieGuy, CherryTheTart

      I'm talking about Americans who do not believe anyone would ever MAKE them leave America.   They don't want to make Aliyah and actually LIVE in a foreign country with another government and learn another language (Biblical Hebrew is NOT modern Israeli Hebrew, though they are related, as one was used to help build the other) and live in tiny apartments with weird laws.

      They just want to be Jewish.  Here.  And have their communities given free autonomy to live as they see fit without Christians nosing in on it - but to get rid of the Muslims.

      What they don't understand is that their close friends and allies the Fundiban want them to LEAVE.  They honestly think that the Muslims are the problem and it has nothing to do with Christian theology having plans for Jews.    They think they will leave when Moshiach comes and everyone sees JEWS ARE REALLY RIGHT.  So the Christian problem doesn't exist in their universe, only a Muslim one.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 04:33:26 PM PDT

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    •  I should point out there is a difference (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Liberal Granny, CherryTheTart

      between Israel the country and Israel the IDEA.

      The country is a good start, but it's secular.  It allows people to actually live the way they want to - and while that's nice and all, it's only temporary as far as these people are concerned.  But it's partly in the right spot - and it's full of Jewish people so you have to support them, even if you don't support the state.

      They are actively looking forward to Israel the democracy becoming Israel the kingdom.  With a king who actually has power of life and death over people.  REALLY.  And since there are people who are known to be of the line of David, there are eligible candidates in the minds of people who think that way.  People who can PROVE they qualify, BTW.

      So they aren't planning on leaving until THAT Israel is here.  Sure, visit the one now, send the kids for some schooling - but that's not the Israel they are waiting for - it's just the place holder Israel until everyone knows they are right.  And then, well Christianity and Islam won't exist anymore and be an issue, because everyone will know they are right.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 05:15:58 PM PDT

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      •  um ... (0+ / 0-)
        it's secular.  It allows people to actually live the way they want to
        Nnnnot entirely.  Israel-the-country does have a state religion, and there's a lot of bad feeling there right now about how the Orthodox interpretation of said religion is the dominant one.

        But that's another discussion for elsewhere, maybe.

        •  it's secular in the sense (0+ / 0-)

          no one is forced by the government to be frum - and there are other religious options besides Judaism.  No one loses citizenship or goes to jail for changing religions. The whole issue of halacha and rabbis and who is and isn't subject to their belief in their own authority is a completely different cultural matter.

          Gay rights.
          Gay marriage.
          No compulsory religious services or education.
          No forced conversions to Judaism.

          That the shuls Israelis prefer not to attend are orthodox ones... that's a cultural issue, not a government one.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Wed Oct 31, 2012 at 11:26:28 AM PDT

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          •  gay marriage? (0+ / 0-)

            Gay marriage isn't currently legal in Israel.  I don't think any non-religious form of marriage exists.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            It's true that the state religion is pretty lenient about a lot of things -- no forced conversions yes, and no forced adherence to religious law in most cases -- but it still isn't secular in the sense that American law is.

            •  my bad. you are correct. (0+ / 0-)

              I meant to say serve openly and got my brain stuck - marriage is indeed a freaking mess in Israel.

              My cousin has been married... 3 times now I think to his current wife because rabbis can't get the paperwork right...

              America isn't as clearly secular as we pretend to be either.  I think it's a valid statement to call Israel a secular democracy and well within the norm for democratic countries -  England is hardly a fundamentalist theocracy despite having a Queen and a state religion.  

              And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

              by Mortifyd on Wed Oct 31, 2012 at 01:24:28 PM PDT

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