Skip to main content

View Diary: Drones Don't Kill People - Presidents Do (271 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  then you're in way the hell over your own head. (10+ / 0-)

    Just sit there on the sidelines and take pot-shots at the President, without having the vaguest faintest clue about what you would propose to do instead.

    Those kinds of "positions" are a dime a dozen.  

    Thou shalt not vote on machines with invisible parts.

    by G2geek on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 07:55:20 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Cool story bro. nt (4+ / 0-)

      “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

      by 420 forever on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:02:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  i have a solution to the problem... (18+ / 0-)

      but it has little to do with sending out the imperial storm troopers to stop some mouthy cleric in the middle east from writing mean things about america.

      my solution is more whole cloth.  it elides the problem by ending the empire, stopping "full spectrum dominance" and getting our troops out of places that they don't belong.

      i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

      by joe shikspack on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:04:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  how, specifically? (7+ / 0-)

        But you have no specifics, no concrete proposals, nothing but accusations that the President is a murderer of children.

        Thou shalt not vote on machines with invisible parts.

        by G2geek on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:30:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  your demand for a counter proposal is silly... (12+ / 0-)

          and has no bearing on the content of the diary.  the current use of drones is morally wrong and unconstitutional - and on that basis it should be terminated.  there is no need for somebody like me to come up with an alternate plan and saying that one has to have one in order to criticize the current plan is a logical fallacy of great proportions.

          i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

          by joe shikspack on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 08:44:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no it is not: every time I've raised significant.. (7+ / 0-)

            ... criticisms of Obama's policies, I've spelled out counter-proposals in detail.  I'm an engineer; engineers are not complainers, we actually build stuff that works; and we also have very little respect for complainers who have nothing to propose.

            ---  

            The use of drones reduces civilian casualties and minimizes risk to American service members.  What exactly is "morally wrong" about that?  

            ---

            You're welcome to "criticize."  You're not welcome to inflame, which is what you do by accusing the President we just elected, of being a child-murderer.  

            And after slinging an ad-hom like that against the President who many of us just worked our asses off to elect, and all of us here voted for with the exception of the Republican trolls who hang out here, there is no reasonable basis to insist on anyone reading the rest of it.

            Face this: you're not effective at accomplishing what you say is your intended goal.

            Thou shalt not vote on machines with invisible parts.

            by G2geek on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:34:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  if that is what i must face... (7+ / 0-)

              and since you are an engineer who "builds stuff that works" and who has "very little respect for complainers who have nothing to propose."

              instead of complaining about my diary, perhaps you should instead construct a diary that denounces the improper and unconstitutional use of drones (note from the title that the complaint is not about drones, but rather, how they are used), educates and informs others about this and perhaps causes them to act to stop the improper and unconstitutional use of drones.

              i will look forward to your better diary.  unless of course you're just a whiner.

              i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

              by joe shikspack on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:43:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  There is no justifcation (14+ / 0-)

              for human rights abuse.

              We need to scrap our existing foreign policy and start respecting the sovereignty of other nations.

              Much of what is causing this conflict is our own imperialist behavior.

              Sometimes a plan is more about what isn't done, rather than what is. We have now caused more human casualties and loss than the original event that was the catalyst. What we have is two political parties trying to outdo themselves with ramping up the national security frenzy to the point in which we have become widely seen in the international community as the aggressors. We're seen as the terrorists.

              The first part of a plan is to stop giving people reasons to despise us. Sometimes less is more. Small is big. Humility works better than beating the war drum. Diplomacy works better than force. We need to stop being the John Wayne of the planet.

              Much of our terrorism problem would be eliminated by simply stopping our own terrorism.

              We should begin drawing away from oil to other renewable energy sources, rather than preying upon the middle east in this barely disguised war over resources.

              Whenever possible, dealing with terrorists should be a police action. When more force is needed, we must comply with international law.

              Our entire history has been one of provocation and imperialism. No wonder there are people who want to drive planes into buildings. Let's stop giving them reason to hate us. There is a better way.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 11:15:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree with every sentence except this one: (5+ / 0-)
                Our entire history has been one of provocation and imperialism.
                It's more complicated than that.

                But you're 100% correct on the huge damaging consequences of President Obama's drone program.

              •  And I would agree with this very strongly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ZhenRen

                from a sense of ideology, if this were the only statement made, and it remained at the level of ideology. In a hypothetical sense, it's ideal, it's ethical, and it's all-around the best way for our Nation and others. The real world is, of course, messier. But I do like this particular comment and wanted to acknowledge that I found it to be fairly incisive as a hypothetical statement about values.

                Vote YES on Prop. 30, California!!!! Yes on 30, No on 32 & 38. For the future of education. (Oh look at that. Yes We Did!)

                by mahakali overdrive on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:16:25 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  joe shikspack, joanneleon

                  The real world is always messier. It's messier because of the difficulty of changing the accepted status quo. The more we go along with the status quo, the harder it is to change. Once things become the accepted norm, it is always difficult and even painful to change course.

                  We've been astray from nearly the beginning of our history in terms of foreign policy. Thus the path forward seems to force us in directions we don't want to go. Changing course seems extreme only because we've strayed to such extremes.

                  We must change course. At some point, there is no choice except resistance. That time has come.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 11:46:57 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Agree (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joe shikspack

                    and the desensitization is really troubling, not only on the drone strikes, though that is some of the worst of it, but on other things too.  I think it's really important to teach our kids about how things were not like this just a couple of decades ago. It's not that the govt would not still do horrible things like this, but it was not accepted by the public like this and propagandized -- it was hidden.  And we did not have presidents openly asking for laws that allow him to detain and assassinate and wage war anywhere in the world unilaterally. We did not have huge data bases full of all of our communications.  We did not have a government openly engaging in torture.


                    "Justice is a commodity"

                    by joanneleon on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 06:55:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Wait (13+ / 0-)

              I am an engineer too.  Got the diploma on the wall to show it.  Please don't presume to speak for all engineers.  Gah.

              Engineers design stuff that works, but we also study and understand theory.  We value form, fit and function, and we understand that there are rules in the world that our products have to take into consideration.  

              And besides all of that, your request for an alternative plan with operational detail is absurd.  Every person who has thoughts, opinions and objections to the way we kill innocent civilians, and even American citizens, has to submit an alternate plan with operational detail before they can speak?  wtf, that's hilarious.  But you offer that every time you criticize? What do you think it's worth for our military to receive alternate plans with operational detail from a hack like you?  

              We spend, what, close to a trillion dollars a year on offense defense and we have federal employees, military, and contractors doing every imaginable kind of planning, design, etc.  Surely they can come up with solutions that don't violate international law, domestic law, basic moral values and comply with the letter and spirit of our constitution.

              And as I said before, 1) Yemen is not a hostile government; 2) we are not at war with that country.  If there was a solid case against Awlaki that would stand up in a court of law, ask Yemen to detain him.  Extradite him.  Put him in front of a judge.  Or ask Yemen to try him if he broke laws there.  There were other ways to deal with this rather than blowing up an American citizen and making war in a country we are not even at war with, and then to make matters a hundred times worse, after killing the father, going in with another drone strike weeks later and blowing up a group of teenagers who had nothing to do with any of it.

              If the case against Awlaki the son was so solid, why has the administration refused to answer any questions about it?  Why?  There are valid questions about this being not only murder but a war crime.

              And you know what else is a war crime?  Blowing people up and then coming back with another missile and hitting the same spot again just as neighbors and first responders are coming in to rescue the wounded.  And there is solid evidence of this happening, and not just once.  

              And the other line of logic here is one you will find when you read the writings of people from Yemen and those who know the country well.  You will find the same line of logic in the writings of retired military brass and analysts and experts.  You know what they are saying? We're creating more terrorists than we are blowing up. These Obama policies are not helping to fight terrorism, they are making the problem worse.  How is that in the best interest of the American people and our national security or the War on Terror?  So in addition to crossing lines in the area of murder and war crimes, this is also further endangering our country -- it works against the policy of keeping the people of this country safe, which this president says is his top priority.  It is a fail, in so many different ways.  And nobody needs to be an engineer or a geek or know any operational detail to understand that.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 11:29:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Besides (7+ / 0-)

            any such operational detail would be classified!  lol


            "Justice is a commodity"

            by joanneleon on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 11:02:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  This is an intellectually dishonest ... (16+ / 0-)

          ... argument. A single diary that points out a problem and documents it carefully is allowed to not at the same time present a complete progressive foreign policy white paper.

          Its an argument that would have been howled down five years ago, if used to attack a diary presenting some brutal and Constitutionally unfounded foreign policy of George W Bush.

          The strikes themselves undermine US national security. Stopping the strikes is an action that in and of itself a step toward a stronger US national security.

          Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

          by BruceMcF on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:13:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  accusing the president who we all just voted for.. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Deep Texan, deedogg, Eyesbright, OIL GUY

            ... and many of us worked our asses off to elect, of being a child-murderer, is not "pointing out a problem."

            It's flinging a verbal Molotov cocktail into a crowded room.

            And you've also been around here damn long enough to know it.  

            I have very little respect for complainers, or as I call them, "complain-ers," who have nothing to propose.  They're one click of the dial away from concern trolls.

            And inflammatory complainers are somewhere past concern trolls on the dial, because they stir up divisions on the left, which, whether they know it or not, and whether they like it or not, only serves the interests of our political enemies.

            Thou shalt not vote on machines with invisible parts.

            by G2geek on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:41:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly. Obama's drone program is (8+ / 0-)

            HURTING U.S. national security, whatever his motivation.  He needs to be persuaded to back off.  He's never again going to have to face an election where he has to prove he's as tough as the Republicans.

            Note that I tried to say that precisely.  Obviously I don't know what data the president sees, much less can I know whether he has political motivations for the drone program.  I'm not charging him with that.

            But I DO KNOW that the program is damaging to U.S. national security, and I hope he will have a change of heart.

            •  I would want to know more specifically about it (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tytalus, Timaeus

              because I've heard that it minimizes civilian casualties. Thus said, I'm NOT in favor of drone strikes, nor am I comfortable with other forms of things like cluster bombs. For me, it's entirely about minimizing civilian casualties. It is entirely about an acknowledgement that our diplomatic President may, from time to time, find himself unable to utilize diplomacy (hopefully this situation will diminish over time), and in these cases, I would like to see him use a light hand which is strategic and arrow-nosed toward whomever the "target" is, without killing innocent children and so on.

              As a long-term peace protester, this is probably self-evident.

              But I think at least we're on the same page, more or less, with the President thus far not biting at the many opportunities to install military intervention that he might have, ranging from Yemen to Egypt to Indonesia to Sudan, and so on and so forth.

              Vote YES on Prop. 30, California!!!! Yes on 30, No on 32 & 38. For the future of education. (Oh look at that. Yes We Did!)

              by mahakali overdrive on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 10:22:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  You are right that abuse of the Constitution ... (12+ / 0-)

      ... is so common that statements of opposition to that abuse are pretty much a dime a dozen.

      Abuse of the Constitution by a sitting President was an outrage five years ago. The something happened to make it all OK after all.

      Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

      by BruceMcF on Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 09:08:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site