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View Diary: Ryan Goes Palin: "Obama Threatens Our Judeo-Christian Values" (98 comments)

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  •  Mormons are Christians like Christians are Jews (19+ / 0-)

    Incorporating the belief system of one religion and adding a whole additional layer of prophecy and supernatural mythology on top of it makes for something else entirely.  Jesus said nothing about golden tablets, an American vacation or Kolob.  Eighteen hundred years of Christian history were silent on these matters until a con man came up with a very fishy story.

    I'm not a Mormon or a Christian, of course, but the idea that Mormons could add so much of top of Christian beliefs and still call themselves Christians strikes me as preposterous, no matter what they choose to say.

    For the love of money is the root of all evil; and while some have coveted after it, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)

    by Dallasdoc on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:48:25 AM PST

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    •  Muslims also "believe" in Jesus (7+ / 0-)

      If Mormons are Christians so are Muslims.

      •  Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet and teacher (8+ / 0-)

        They see the Christian view of Jesus as the Son of God as sacrilegious and idolatrous, as I understand it.  While Mormons might accept the Christian view of Jesus, the prophetic teachings of Joseph Smith lead them in a very different direction from anything that could honestly be described as Christianity, in my view.

        For the love of money is the root of all evil; and while some have coveted after it, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)

        by Dallasdoc on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:00:40 AM PST

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      •  Um...no. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MidwestTreeHugger, Dallasdoc

        Muslims believe that Isa (Jesus) was a prophet; in fact, he is mentioned by name n the Qu'ran on more than 20 occasions.  They believe in Jesus' virgin birth, and that he was given permission (by Allah) to perform miracles.  It is generally taught, in Islam, that Jesus was the last prophet to the children of Israel, and that he effectively heralded Mohammed's arrival.

        HOWEVER...

        Islam does NOT accept the divinity of Christ.  It's important to note that, as mentioned above, Islam teaches that Jesus was given Allah's permission to perform miracles, NOT that Jesus wielded divine power of his own accord.  Furthermore, Islam denies the Incarnation (and, thus, the Trinitarian belief of mainstream Christianity), the Crucifixion, the Resurrection, and the Atonement.

        Given that the latter four points are central to Christian belief, I don't think your suggestion bears scrutiny.

    •  In fairness, Reform Jews are pretty far from Jews (3+ / 0-)
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      Dallasdoc, Olds88, MidwestTreeHugger

      in the eyes of a lot of Hassidic Jews.  But they're all part of a spectrum of "Judaism".  It might be helpful to look at Mormonism this way with regard to Christianity.  There is a spectrum of "Christian" practices and organizational structures, with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianic Jews, etc. etc. all part of that.

      That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

      by concernedamerican on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:02:07 AM PST

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      •  All Jews are reading from the same Book (5+ / 0-)

        They choose different emphases and take different conclusions from the same texts.  These differences of opinion occur in every religion, but the agreement on basic fundamental texts and principles gives coherence.

        Mormonism finds a new prophet, a new Holy Book, a remarkably different view of God and the afterlife, and other fundamental differences with anything else in the Christian spectrum.  That's where I think it's erroneous to think of them as Christians.  Stretching the term Christian that far robs it of any kind of fundamental coherence.

        For the love of money is the root of all evil; and while some have coveted after it, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)

        by Dallasdoc on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:06:19 AM PST

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    •  An American vacation? nt (0+ / 0-)

      When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day? George Carlin

      by msmacgyver on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:11:42 AM PST

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    •  Oh, you have (0+ / 0-)

      many people calling themselves Christians who believe lots of stuff that isn't in the bible. Yet no one excommunicates the Rapturists or prosperity Christians for adding whole new layers. Protestants and Catholics have killed each other for 500 years over who was really worshiping Christ.

      A few thousand years passed before anyone heard god say you could eat pork or break the Sabbath or pray to his son. Suddenly, the new testament showed up and, bingo, you can.

      In the impossible venn diagram of religion, Mormonism would have some weird intersections, but it would still be Christian.

      •  The overlap is similar to Christians and Jews (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        terabytes, Mistral Wind

        ... as I noted above.  It's what lies outside the Christian circle but inside the Mormon one that makes it different, in my opinion.  

        Christian sects come up with all sorts of different interpretations of what's in their Bible, but since Nicea they haven't dragged extraneous material into the canon.  Christianity imposed some orthodoxy on itself after a freewheeling first few centuries, and Mormonism lies clearly outside that canonical orthodoxy.

        For the love of money is the root of all evil; and while some have coveted after it, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)

        by Dallasdoc on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:22:34 AM PST

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        •  overlap not similar at all n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  If Mormons worshipped another (0+ / 0-)

          God, say the nephew of Jesus, Jimbo, then then they might rightfully be called Jimboists. But they don't worship any others. What other deity would you put them under?

          Since "Christian" is a collection of different groups, it can't be defined from within. Many, of course, have claimed to-- by excluding believers in saints, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. Drawing the line at Nicea is just as arbitrary. While Mormons rightfully can't be called Methodist or Episcopalian, they do worship Jesus Christ alone no matter what they have added about him. To try to exclude them from Christianity is engaging in a no true Scotsman argument.

          •  Jews and Muslims worship the same god too (0+ / 0-)

            Does that make them Christian?  Nicea drew the canonical line, but fifteen subsequent centuries of practice ratified it, so it's hardly "arbitrary."  Joseph Smith isn't considered a saint by Mormons, but a prophet, which is an entirely different theological category.  They take up a whole new Holy Book, and their view of the afterlife and of the whole God-on-Kolob thing is decidedly outside anything that could be considered the Christian mainstream.  

            The amendments to previous Christian practice Mormons make are analogous to those Christians made in Judaism.  That's what makes it a different religion, to my mind.  Claiming otherwise requires better arguments than those you've presented.

            For the love of money is the root of all evil; and while some have coveted after it, they have erred from the faith and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10)

            by Dallasdoc on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 07:07:22 AM PST

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