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View Diary: Golden results in the Golden State: Democrats dominate California (368 comments)

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  •  'Bout time! (20+ / 0-)

    A long-awaited victory is even sweeter to savor.

    Next up on my wishful thinking list: repeal of Prop 13.

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:00:11 PM PST

    •  You have (7+ / 0-)

      no clue; it was a most necessary prop.

      Ceiling Cat rules....srsly.

      by side pocket on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:02:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It was over-reaching. (8+ / 0-)

        There were more sensible alternatives. And the cure was worse than the disease, IMO.

        "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:11:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  40-50% tax increases in the years prior to (12+ / 0-)

          its passage were what necessitated Prop 13. That is unsustainable. Democrats will lose power if they start advocating for the repeal of Prop 13. It's deficiencies can be fixed - returning to the era before it was repealed is not going to work.

          "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

          by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:15:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, we don't want to go back (7+ / 0-)

            but we can replace it with something better.

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:21:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The devil's in the details (6+ / 0-)

              as always in politics.

              Have you ever read Boom Magazine - A Journal of California? They had a great article earlier this year on Prop 13's passage - examining more closely what was going on at the time. It was very eye opening. I've always believed in the standard CW of the left around that issue. I had no idea how rapidly taxes were increasing year-over-year in the late 1970s.

              "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

              by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:27:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, I haven't. (3+ / 0-)

                Looks interesting.

                "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:31:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Shane is full of BS. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dkosdan

                  He isn't responding to your point, which was about alternatives. Repeating the true fact that residential property taxes were going up at a crazy rate doesn't make Prop 13 "necessary" ... there was a sane alternative on the 1978 ballot that was defeated by the corporate bankrolls.

                  •  yeah, I think that was Prop 8 (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dkosdan

                    but it didn't actually achieve much on its own, if I read it correctly. It allowed the legislature to come up with a solution involving higher taxes on commercial property and lower taxes on residential property.

                    "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:33:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The legislature ALREADY HAD!! (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Boy Howdy

                      The entire Howard Jarvis campaign against Prop 8 consisted of the claim that it didn't do anything. But the legislature had already passed the legislation; it just needed Prop 8 to make split tax rates constitutional. I don't have to read it, I lived it and campaigned for it.

                  •  You seem pretty angry (0+ / 0-)

                    What's that all about? Facts got you down on this issue?

                    "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

                    by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:46:59 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I stated the facts, you just do ad hominem. (0+ / 0-)

                      The fact is that the 1978 Prop 8 addressed that residential tax rate problem; Prop 13 was not "necessitated". Prop 13 exploited the problem of homeowners and put the fate of CA in the hands of a handful of right wing ideologues.

                      •  Prop 8 was not enacted, Prop 13 was (0+ / 0-)

                        Therefore we deal with the reality of the situation - not discuss the possibilities of what could have been under Prop 8. This isn't Alice in Wonderland.

                        Polls do not show even 1/3 support for repealing Prop 13. And ideological scaremongering and telling voters they're selfish aren't going to convince anyone.

                        "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

                        by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:56:49 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  An important fact is that prop 13 has kept Cal. (0+ / 0-)

                      from creating a fair and sensible property tax system. And it began the destruction of California's once superb educational system.

                      The californians who moved to Oregon in the 80s brought their property tax and super majority for tax increase ideas with them. Now our schools, public lands, parks and infrastructure are degraded and our superb land use laws are under constant assault. Our legislature is in constant gridlock These super majority laws make it possible for conservatives to always get what they want on taxes regardless of what a majority of the states citizens might want.

                      Prop 13 and laws like it, have  been a cancer to citizens ability to govern and tax themselves as they deem the times and situation require. It does not allow California, or any state idiot enough to copy California, to modernize tax codes to changing times, citizens priorities, or emergencies.

                      Prop 13 is the 1% and cranky cheapskate wingers stealing democracy and fucking the future for everyone else.

                       

              •  I lived in Mill Valley (6+ / 0-)

                which was the epicenter of price/assessment explosions. There were cases of older people who had to sell to pay their taxes.

                Ceiling Cat rules....srsly.

                by side pocket on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:42:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  yep. when you buy a house, you should not be (9+ / 0-)

                  forced out of it over taxes. Reform is needed, but going back to the way it used to be is crazy.

                  if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

                  by mrsgoo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:46:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Clearly a return to pre-Prop 13 tax policies (5+ / 0-)

                  is totally out of the question. Assessments cannot and should not reoccur every year and there should be limits on the how much assessments can be increased.

                  "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

                  by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:49:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Most sane states exempt retirees from proptax in (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    side pocket

                    creases, even those from increase valuation, and know to reduce rates when prop values skyrocket to prevent unfair tax increases.

                    'Course, lots of those happened after Cali showed how stupid relying on 'free money' of increased evaluations was ('free' bc pols did not have to increase tax rates - the market did it for them).  OTOH, that the 'free market' priced many out of their homes kinda proves how stupid a 'free' market really is, no?

                    •  One big problem is homes passing into trusts (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      untorqued, side pocket

                      which then are rented out, most of these paying taxes on their last assessments in 1978. We have this problem up and down our street - the original owners having died long ago but the houses not being reassessed and their adult heirs enjoying the rent as a nice tax-free income.

                      "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

                      by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:16:41 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  People were taxed heavily, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonga 23, untorqued

                but they seemed to get what they paid for - a top-notch educational system, massive infrastructure improvements and extraordinarily beautiful public spaces.

                "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                by SueDe on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:13:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  People lost their homes because they couldn't (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kurt

                  afford the assessments. It's not right when big banks get away with it and it's certainly not OK for the government to force people out of their homes because they can't afford inflated assessments either.

                  "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

                  by Shane Hensinger on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:19:43 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What do big banks have to do (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    La Gitane

                    with real estate valuations?  Aren't those done by county tax assessors?

                    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                    by SueDe on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 10:06:10 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  No, you can't. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Shane Hensinger, kurt

              If the Dems tried to repeal Prop 13, they would be seen as the high tax party that the GOP has tried to portray them as.

              Prop 13 is the Dems third rail. Touch it and all that has been gained will be lost.

            •  prop 13 (0+ / 0-)

              a major factor is the allowance of 1%  maximum increase per year in assessment. Should be tied to inflation.

          •  You don't understand the word "necessitated" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dkosdan

            or you do and you're just dishonest. (Well, I already know that from I/P.) Aaron is telling the truth ... there were more sensible alternatives; one of them was on the ballot along with Prop 13 in 1978 and the Howard Jarvis assholes fought hard against it and won, much to CA's loss.

            •  Yeah? (0+ / 0-)

              Well I don't know who you are and haven't participated in an I/P discussion for years. So clearly I made a much bigger impact on you than you did on me.

              "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

              by Shane Hensinger on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 04:15:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Prop 8 was the alternative to Prop 13 in 1978, (5+ / 0-)

            but Howard Jarvis beat it back. Jarvis, the owner of lots of apartments, fought for Prop 13 with a pack of lies and by appealing to the fears of people who were hit with large tax increases. Grandma was going to be taxed out of her home! Problem was that Prop 13 went far beyond property tax rates, and put restrictions on how state and local entities could raise funds and made funding public services so difficult and convoluted.

            The better answer to the rapid rise in property taxes was Prop 8, put on the ballot by the Legislature. It would have rolled back and limited residential property tax increases, while leaving business property and tax laws untouched.

            Prop. 8 lost to 13, and we have been dealing with a straight-jacket on every state and local entity when it comes to funding their programs. The L.A. County measure to continue the long-standing 1/4 cent sales tax to build and improve rapid transit (the very successful light rail, among others) failed, even though it got 65% of the vote; it requires 2/3. Same goes for school bonds, safety bonds, etc.

            Then there are the inequities built into Prop 13. Property is reassessed at the time of sale and taxed at that level rather than the 1975 + 2%/annum rate when property is kept. This results in those who have owned their homes for a long time to have very low taxes, and more recent buyers pay much more. The inequities between homes and businesses are even more pronounced because businesses tend not to sell property often, and when they change hands they are not considered sales. Therefore business property is effectively taxed at much lower rates than homeowners. We need to undo the Prop 13 provisions regarding setting and raising taxes and fees and do away with the loophole for business.

            •  I think of it as the "little old lady" argument. (0+ / 0-)

              Otherwise reasonable people talk about how prop 13 is necessary because otherwise Grandma will be taxed out of her home. Grandmother displacement is certainly wrong, and I agree there needs to be protections against that. But the real-world effect has been the following: My property taxes are $4215 a year on a property valued at $301k and which is 1,314 square feet. A local millionaire insurance company owner pays $7416 in property taxes on a place that is valued at $2,211,960, is 16,907 square feet, and is described as a replication of an "authentic Normandy castle." So aside from everything else, I think there is room for reform in prop 13. It may be intended to help Grandma, but it is helping millionaires and harming public school teachers.

        •  Not if you were the one whose taxes were (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shane Hensinger, kurt

          exploding 30-50%. My retired mom got caught up in that.

          202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

          by cany on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 08:44:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  on the other hand (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AaronInSanDiego

            i'd be stoked if i owned property that increased in value 30%-50% in a few years.

            •  Well, if your pay followed that, sure. But it (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CaliSista, kurt

              didn't. And for retirees who had owned their homes a long time but were on SS... you see the problem.

              202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

              by cany on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:38:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  That argument works under one assumption (0+ / 0-)

              You could actually make use of that increased value.  If you own multiple properties, or are willing to cash out and move out of state, great.  If you want to keep living in the same community you've made a home in -- the same community where ALL the properties are increasing in price by 30-50% -- not so much.   In that event, it's a meaningless number, comparable to counting the payoff of your life insurance policy in your net wealth.

          •  Yes, even if you were. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cany, Seneca Doane

            Proposition 13 wasn't the only possible solution to the problem.

            "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

            by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:23:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, the past is prologue, as they say. We (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Seneca Doane

              need to fix Prop 13 somehow, but doing nothing wasn't an option.

              202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

              by cany on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:39:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree with that. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cany, Seneca Doane

                There was certainly a real problem that needed to be addressed. Unfortunately, the solution caused a lot of other problems as well.

                "Okay, until next time. Keep sending me your questions, and I will make fun of you... I mean, answer them." - Strong Bad

                by AaronInSanDiego on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:41:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yep. My taxes are higher than houses three times (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Seneca Doane

                  the square footage on my street.

                  The entire pro-corporate tax structure (and boy the bennies developers get during land use approval!) is stunning. We pay for the impacts and get almost no benefit.

                  It's terrible and I've been complaining about it (mostly to people who don't get it and couldn't care less) for 25 years.

                  The bigger and more influential the company the more bennies they get.  

                  202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

                  by cany on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:45:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  You're responding to a strawman. (0+ / 0-)

                What part of "wasn't the only possible solution to the problem" don't you understand? No one said anything about doing nothing.

                As someone who campaigned in 1978 against Prop 13 and for the split tax roll proposition (which was Prop 8 of the time), it's tragic how successful the Howard Jarvis scum were in erasing it from history.

                •  Hey, lighten up! Not in disagreement with you. (0+ / 0-)

                  I didn't campaign one way or the other at the time. I see you are very committed and I don't think we disagree.

                  202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

                  by cany on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:49:21 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  This is a logically invalid argument. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Seneca Doane

            Yes property taxes were exploding. Yes something had to be done about that. And there was a good solution on the 1978 ballot but it wasn't Prop 13, which was an evil exploitation of the problem that people like your mom faced. Prop 13 saved people's homes, but it also gave 2/3 of the tax savings to corporations (much more since) and gave a handful of right wing ideologues control of tax policy. The alternative (a proposition with a now unpleasant number) would have saved the homes without the accompanying evil.

            •  Trust me, I am no defender of what they did. But (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Shane Hensinger

              that's spilled milk, at this point. And yes, something needs to be done.

              202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

              by cany on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 09:40:11 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's non responsive and inaccurate. (0+ / 0-)

                People are saying that Prop 13 was necessary, and that it should not be undone ... they are wrong. What is correct is that fixing the property tax problem in 1978 was necessary ... but that's a different claim.

      •  side pocket is the one with no clue (0+ / 0-)

        2/3 of the tax benefits at the time went to corporations under Prop 13; the percentage is much higher today. Prop 8 (a different one), on the ballot along with Prop 13 in 1978, was much better and fairer ... it would have created a split tax roll that allowed different rates for commercial and residential property. And that's just the property tax part ... the 2/3 requirements were a right wing ideologue's wet dream and have been disastrous for California. Don't let know nothings like side pocket lie about Prop 13 with their ridiculous one-line assertions.

      •  However (and it's a big however) (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Seneca Doane, kurt, dkosdan

        That taxation did not extend to corporations.  The bulk of the tax debt statewide is now being paid by private citizens, not commercial real estate. Thus when Wells overnight took over all the Wachovia properties, for instance, this did not trigger an automatic reassessment of taxes on those properties.  

        I'd also like to see the oil industries cough up more money toward education.  That's what they do in Texas.  

        Finally, a related albeit slightly different tangent:  we got royally screwed by Ken Lay and Bush's other pals in the 2000 electricity "crisis." We use less wattage per person than practically any other state (because we actually do conserve energy), but we still pay way more per watt.  

        Utilities and commercial interests continue to get a free ride.  I'm working my butt off at the CSU, training their workforce, and they're laughing all the way to the bank and their stock meetings.  

    •  They could have excluded commercial (8+ / 0-)

      Real estate and property over a certain value. Good example of how liberals will often do the wrong thing for the right reason in order to feel good for 15 min.

      For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

      by Anne Elk on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:22:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Have to agree. As much as I like the idea of gmo (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aunt Pat, SoCalSal, CaliSista, kurt

        labeling (Prop 37) after reading it - NO.  Good idea - poorly written.

        if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

        by mrsgoo on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 07:48:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There were a bunch of reasons that made me (0+ / 0-)

          vote against 37. But an important reason is that it actually hurts the proponents of the measure. There are very significant problems with the way we do agriculture in this country. Prop 37 would have essentially told consumers, "OK. All fixed." Not even close to true.

          For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

          by Anne Elk on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 07:33:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  commercial IS the prop 13 problem (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cany, Seneca Doane, grover, dkosdan

        I think we'll see some forward young CA politician address the commercial exclusion in prop 13 soon. Doing the right thing will soon become very cool in CA politics.

      •  No, it's not about liberals -- the DID that! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Seneca Doane, dkosdan

        Prop 8 (a different one) in 1978 would have done just that ... it would have created a split tax roll with different rates for commercial property. The Howard Jarvis people -- not liberals -- poured money in to defeat Prop 8 and pass the disastrous and evil Prop 13. I campaigned against Prop 13 and for Prop 8, as did other liberals of the time.

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