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View Diary: Over the Cliff? Yes or No? (38 comments)

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  •  Heh. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jrooth, JTinDC

    I'm glad we're having the discussion.

    Folks should read up on what's going on.

    This is not a domestic issue, even though it sounds like one.


    A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

    by Pluto on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 11:02:14 AM PST

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    •  Sounds like we need a substantive diary on it. (1+ / 0-)
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      jrooth

      Hmmm, I wonder who might be knowledgeable on the subject? ;-)

      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

      by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 11:25:06 AM PST

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      •  You're perfect. (2+ / 0-)
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        JTinDC, jrooth

        You ask the right questions that invite discussion.


        A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

        by Pluto on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 11:26:32 AM PST

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        •  Not who or what I had in mind. (1+ / 0-)
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          jrooth

          Questions are easy. Providing info is hard. And diseminating the info harder still. This gets into stuff that is way above my pay grade.

          I appreciate very much the insights you've shared. We do need an informed discussion, if for no other reason than to try heading off a shitload of "Obama's a sell out" diaries in the event we don't go over the cliff and folks can't understand why.

          Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

          by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 11:33:48 AM PST

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          •  Here's a really good summary (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JTinDC

            ...prepared by the Washington Post.

            I think it presents a simple to read overview that would put everyone on the same page.

            The G20 met last weekend. The fiscal cliff was the dominating topic. Here is a brief summary of the global view.

            Our partner nations want us to continue the tax cuts and stop the spending cuts before Jan 1 to avoid endangering the global economy.

            If President Obama decides to to both, I have no problem with that. We missed our opportunity to let the tax cuts expire. My head already exploded.

            Above all, everyone in the world wants a no-nonsense raising of the debt limit. Even a hint of controversial over this could cut the US off a the knees and debase the dollar globally.


            A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

            by Pluto on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:01:15 PM PST

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            •  Our partner nations (1+ / 0-)
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              Pluto

              can kiss my ass and suck my dick. The tax cuts for the wealthy need to expire. There is absolutely no reason letting tax cuts for the wealthy expire should affect our economy let along the global economy. It's a piddly assed amount for the wealthy but pooled goes a very long way toward balancing our budget.

              The idea that partner nations are sticking their noses in on that partcular issue stinks to high heaven. I can see where they're coming from on the rest, but not on tax cuts for those who do not need them. Again, peeeyoooee does that stink.

              What am I missing here? Cuz as it stands my tin foil hat is spinning a top my head with thoughts of colusion between our GOP with bad elements in partner nations.

              Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

              by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 12:13:42 PM PST

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            •  Steve Kornaki just did an excellent job of (0+ / 0-)

              explaining that this is not a cliff at all. All the shit does not have immediate effect with the exception of the payroll tax which would not be the end pf the world and can be extended rather quickly.

              Seems our partner nations are either being snookered by the hype or are in on trying to snooker us with the hype.

              We need to go over the cliff that is not a cliff and actually is, as jroth and Kornaki both put it, a "gentle downward slope".

              Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

              by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:11:47 PM PST

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              •  Well, that's that, then. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JTinDC

                Do you President Obama will fall for this phony ruse -- or is he smart enough to spot it a mile away?


                A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

                by Pluto on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 01:30:53 PM PST

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                •  That's an uncomfortable question to answer. (1+ / 0-)
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                  Pluto

                  No, he doesn't fall for phony ruses, certainly smart enough to see it a mile away. Sigh - and here's the uncomfortable part -

                  He may be more interested in making a deal than standing on principle. I've been hoping that was behind us. He's in the driver's seat on this and I hope he does the right thing. He has absolutely got to stand his ground and not extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. It would be irresponsible and immoral to do otherwise.

                  When he extended them in 2010 we got a lot out of that deal; extension of UE benefits, DADT repeal being the biggies. That one wasn't as hard to swallow. There's nothing like that on the table this time. Whatever we get is shit, but let's work to get the least stinky turds in the pile.

                  If he caves on this that'll tell me I've been a pretty big fool in much of what I've said to defend him over the last four years.  

                  Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

                  by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 02:16:54 PM PST

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                  •  Folks don't know all the ramifications (1+ / 0-)
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                    JTinDC

                    ...of this issue, across the globe. In this instance, I really trust the President.

                    Funny how we disagree on the 2010 tax deal. That, to me, was a huge mistake. It actually directly set up the fiscal position that we face now.


                    A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

                    by Pluto on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:33:27 PM PST

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                    •  I have to admit, while I'm very inclined to trust (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      chimene

                      the President, I am also very inclined to distrust his advisors, several of whom I think have their own agenda and ideology.

                      To be completely honest, I'm afraid either this president isn't the man I'd like to believe he is OR that, as smart as he is, he sometimes lacks judgement in whose advice he trusts.

                      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

                      by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 03:49:47 PM PST

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                      •  from your pen to God's ear! or Obama's tin ear,the (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JTinDC

                        one he uses for picking and listening to advisors!

                        'course part of the problem is his attachment to the U of Chicago Economics Dept (home of Milton Friedman and the Shock Doctrine...)

                        Maybe having Elizabeth Warren so close will help PBO learn a little more about what economics really work and which are con games?

                        "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

                        by chimene on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 08:52:12 PM PST

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                    •  BTW, I really do appreciate the dialogue. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pluto

                      Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

                      by JTinDC on Thu Nov 08, 2012 at 04:17:13 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

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