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View Diary: Before You Start Bashing Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.) Read This (293 comments)

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  •  no they are not (11+ / 0-)

    it's what republicans and neoliberals are supposed to say. keynesians are supposed to say that debt and deficits absolutely do not matter, right now, and that in fact expanding the debt, short term, is how we are going to build the economy, long term.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 02:24:56 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  they do matter (7+ / 0-)

      the quibble is in how to go about fixing things.  and there are keynesian solutions aplenty for that.  that's the argument to make, but saying being up to our eyeballs in debt to china just doesn't matter is ridiculous.

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

      by Cedwyn on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 02:31:33 PM PST

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      •  no they don't (7+ / 0-)

        short term, deficits should increase. and among the ridiculous who say so they don't matter is krugman.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 02:35:02 PM PST

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        •  think of everything we could afford (4+ / 0-)

          if we weren't paying this kind of interest:

          In 2010, net interest outlays totaled $197 billion

          deficits do matter, just not from every perspective.  anyhoo, thankfully, there are lots of ways to reduce the deficit that don't involve cutting the good stuff. getting out of afghanistan, MIC cuts, raising the SS income cap, cutting bush tax cuts for the rich, etc.

          Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

          by Cedwyn on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 02:54:17 PM PST

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          •  bunk (5+ / 0-)

            we won't buy anything until we have a genuinely growing economy, at which points the deficit will begin to reduce on its own. this isn't complicated. we need to be spending, lots, short term.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 03:00:46 PM PST

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          •  We're borrowing to pay off the interest, (6+ / 0-)

            and the rate we're borrowing at is close to the inflation rate.  Recently the rate on 10 years bonds was BELOW the inflation rate.  People were paying us to hold money and give them back less.  And whenever there's any sort of wobble in the world economy, the demand goes up and the rate goes down.  Hell that happened when our debt was downgraded!  Because our debt was downgraded!

            When you look at the finances, right now we're basically borrowing for free.  Which mean's now's the time to run up a large debt at favorable rates to increase our productivity.  Raise productivity to reduce the deficit.  When you're offered something for nothing, you take it.

            •  Don't forget: "to raise productivity" on (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pistolSO, zett

              Wall Street means to fire people.

              You're right, now's the time to be spending to stimulate the economy, as well as to invest in education and R/D, build a new 21st Cent. Infrastructure, expand growth in clean energy and respond to climate change.

              Those are all good reasons to be doing that now as opposed to later.

              You can't make this stuff up.

              by David54 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 04:15:41 PM PST

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      •  We're not eyeballs in debt to China (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FloraLine

        We're in debt to other Americans via pension funds, retirement accounts, etc.

        While the amount of our debt in foreign hands is rising, due to the move by state sovereigns into t-bills after the financial crisis, has increased, it's not the majority.

        Your comments are a bright example of a type of economic propaganda that's been mainstreamed into our discourse of the last twenty years.

        A good place for some solid reality-based analysis is The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities. Also Jared Berstein's blog, On the Economy has been my go to this year. He was Biden's economist from 2009-2010.

        He does a wonderful job explaining the political economy.

        I listen to wingnut radio so you don't have to!

        by Sharon on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:22:27 PM PST

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        •  okay, maybe not up to eyeballs (0+ / 0-)

          but even despite recent declines, china is still the largest holder of U.S. debt. and it has implications beyond just the debt.

          U.S. taxpayers paid about $30 billion to China last year in interest, compared to the average of $37.5 billion in the previous five years, according to a calculation by The Washington Post based on data from the Treasury and Commerce Departments.

          ...The reason for the shift is related to how China and Japan are managing their currencies. When foreign governments buy U.S. dollar-denominated securities such as Treasury bonds, it has the effect of making the currencies of these countries cheaper relative to the dollar. That tends to boost exports and economic growth of these countries.

          Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

          by Cedwyn on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 04:40:59 AM PST

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    •  framing for liberals is a different beast than (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ConfusedSkyes, David54, I love OCD

      framing to include those who voted for Mitt Romney.

       the debt issue has already been framed (thank you, 112th House). progressives have any hope of leading republican voters out of their multi-dimensional-denials aren't going to succeed by just talking about keynesian economics.  i've listened in on these conversations for going on 17 years and the republican frame is "Debt is Bad."  that's one tough frame to break.

      just getting republicans to the point where they understand saint ronnie and young george added to the Big Bad Debt is half the frame.  "Oh!  if ronnie did it...."  

      framing isn't as easy as laying out factiod veggies for the delusionalists to chomp on... they'll go for chips everytime.

      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

      by kj in missouri on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 03:11:55 PM PST

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      •  Well, then... (0+ / 0-)
        the republican frame is "Debt is Bad."  that's one tough frame to break.
        If debt is so bad, they should be welcoming sequestration as it immediately sends the economy in the direction of reducing the deficit, right?

        Just another faggity fag socialist fuckstick homosinner!

        by Ian S on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 04:00:21 PM PST

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      •  A lot of working stiffs just want to know, when (4+ / 0-)

        they sign the bottom of their 1040's, that the people in Washington take their sacrifice seriously.
        It's personal, and painful.
        It has been successfully demagogued for 40 years.
        A lot of Mitt Romney voters are brainwashed by the "frame".
        This is the source of Grover Norquist's power.
        In order to gain the confidence of those "swing voters" the Dems need to use the existing vocabulary and alphabet and communicate awareness of how the average person feels about spending in Washington.
         I agree with you, in other words.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 04:23:14 PM PST

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      •  I thought Cheney said... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kj in missouri

        Deficits don't matter!

        :)

        I listen to wingnut radio so you don't have to!

        by Sharon on Sun Nov 11, 2012 at 06:29:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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