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View Diary: My Response to Five Questions on Abortion (72 comments)

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  •  You make good points (12+ / 0-)

    And I agree with what you're saying, but I think you should rewrite a bit about children with Down's Syndrome. Calling it a "defective copy" would probably be offensive to parents of children with Down's.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:36:44 PM PST

    •  Totally agree (7+ / 0-)

      That section is abhorrently ableist. And aside from just being offensive to parents of children with Down's, it would probably be offensive to, you know, people with Down's.

      matthewborgard.com ~ @MatthewBorgard

      by zegota on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 01:53:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do you know anybody with Down's. (7+ / 1-)

        I do.  I watched my friend parent Jamie for years.  She had Jamie in her 40s. He molested my my 5 year old girl. He paints and makes music. He lives in a summer camp like environment in Vermont and costs the State of NJ $60,000.00 a year. He has numerous physical problems that require expensive medical intervention.

        I think you should hang your righteous indignation up on a hook and leave it there to age awhile.  If I had a Down's fetus, I would abort in a New York minute.  And since I had two pregnancies in my 40s, I got some experience in the whole ballgame.

        I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

        by CherryTheTart on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:54:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're the right that should be hanging (0+ / 0-)

          your thoughts on a hook.  Because a person with Down's syndrome molested your daughter, now every fetus with Down's syndrome should be aborted?  Ever hear of stereotyping?  It's what this site is about avoiding.

          I'm tempted to cut you some slack because I can only imagine the physical devastation of discovering your daughter was molested.  But to make the assumption that everyone with Down's is horrible and that no one should take offense at negative things being said about them is inexcusable, regardless.  I'm incredibly sad to see this wholly inappropriate rant got two recs!

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:35:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who said this?: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mamamorgaine, LadyMiseryAli
            Because a person with Down's syndrome molested your daughter, now every fetus with Down's syndrome should be aborted?
            I did not say that. You said that.  

            Never misquote me and then attempt to call me to out for YOUR misquotation. It is passive aggressive and obnoxious.  

            I am intimately acquainted with a Down's syndrome child/adult and his Mother.  I gave facts. It is complicated. You got what YOU got. Step back. I do not know what you have invested in this, but do not put it on me.

            I do a joke which I have performed as standup about amniocentesis. A joke. I am so far ahead of you, you cannot see me.

            I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

            by CherryTheTart on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 03:45:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  What is passive aggressive is saying something (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CherryTheTart

              in a way that leaves you room to wiggle out of what you said when you're called on it.  

              Bullshit you didn't stereotype.  Your attack against someone calling out the manner in which the diarist described a fetus with Down's syndrome showed very clearly what your position is.  I will indeed continue to call you out, regardless of your sense of entitlement and superiority when you utilize the old deniability routine.

              If you're so far ahead of me, you really should at least be aware of this incredibly basic form of passive aggressive behavior and be able to recognize in yourself.

              "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

              by gustynpip on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:40:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have seen the tragedy of a Downs (0+ / 0-)

                . . .  birth and life first hand for the family, the Mother, and the Downs person intimately.  I babysat Jamie in child and adulthood. I would abort a Down's fetus in a New York minute.

                I went through two Down's scares because I had babies at 43 and 45.  I was conflicted about what I would do all through the process.  What do you do when you can feel a baby moving in you and it has Down's?

                Your cheap sentiment is boring and predictable.  

                I used to be Snow White. And then I drifted. - Mae West

                by CherryTheTart on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 01:48:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  No one said every fetus. It is a choice (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CherryTheTart, jmcgrew, LadyMiseryAli

            But I will not pull punches. The question asked about genetic diseases. When we know that the DNA of a fetus has known severe issues that have drastic real world consequences, then the choice should not be taken lightly.  If a woman can raise a special needs child and wants to, then fine.

            But it is a roll of the genetic dice I do not want to make.  My mother told me today to get a flu shot because a new study has linked Autism to flu exposure. What if we can stop Autism as well?

            It isn't breeding the master race to not want a special needs child.  I would much rather try again.

        •  Do you know anybody with Down's (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Little

          Yes. And calling her a 'defective copy' is ableist bullshit and in a perfect world would be grounds for a ban. It's no different than using the n-word or the c-word, neither of which are acceptable here.

          Your monetary argument also makes no sense. The population that costs the state the most for medical care are the elderly; shall we euthanize the lot of them?

          Look, I'm fully supportive of abortion for any reason. Bodily autonomy is the most important right that is. But you can advocate for a woman's right to control her body without dehumanizing disabled people, which are pretty much the most vulnerable people there are.

          matthewborgard.com ~ @MatthewBorgard

          by zegota on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 06:35:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Do you also want your own facts? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box, jmcgrew

        I can't change the facts of the situation.  Downs people and their families know the facts, they have to deal with it.  The disease isn't caused by evil spirits, it has a root cause.

        I have a highscool friend with a severe disorder, he's in a wheelchair for life.  His parents never had kids after he was born, and he will never have kids, and you know why.

        I don't think I'm better than him as a person, I'm not.  But I would never wish that on my child.  It's my choice to make.

    •  In addition, I'd eliminate the word "expendable" (4+ / 0-)

      when referring to a fetus, as well as stating that you can try again.  That sounds, to put it bluntly, rather hard and uncaring.  While a fetus is not a child, most who have suffered a miscarriage will tell you that one pregnancy is not replaceable by another.  

      Otherwise, you make some excellent points.

      "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

      by gustynpip on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:05:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, I meant expendable, unfortunately. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pandoras Box, jmcgrew, LadyMiseryAli

        And it's sad that it has to be this way, but the fetus is absolutely expendable.  That's so that a Catholic hospital can't kill my wife in delivery if they have a better chance to save the baby, because the sake of their souls commands it.

        I am not losing my wife in delivery for a baby if there is any chance to save her life.  I absolutely try again, or adopt if it can't happen.

        But no one will tell me that the life of the baby trumps the life of my wife.  I can replace the unknown of a new baby.  I cannot replace my wife.  If that's hard, so be it.  These are civil rights I'm talking about.

        •  Okay, if stating that is what makes you feel (0+ / 0-)

          better, I'd do it.  You'll alienate a whole lot of people, but judging from your responses to people's suggestions for improvements, that's not really your goal.  Not real sure why you posted this if you didn't want some feedback, since you're obviously preaching to the choir here, but you're certainly free to take or leave the feedback, as you chose.

          "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

          by gustynpip on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:43:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I happen to agree (8+ / 0-)

      I'm the mother of a child with Autism, and while not the same thing, I found the language used rather offensive.   I thought the second part of the argument was more effective when you brought up the costs and society's unwillingness to help (believe me I know all about this aspect of it).  

    •  I have a kid with Down Syndrome (18+ / 0-)

      If it makes any difference, I am so attached to my son that if someone offered to go back and give him the "right" number of Chromosome 21, I'd say "no thanks".  But the point is choice, and whether I have a right to dictate what choices other people make.  Though I congratulate poeple when their children are born with Down Syndrome for getting such a cool kid, it's also not my place to dictate what others ultimately decide to do.

      The five questions presented unfairly demand that the respondent equivocate around a biased set of assumptions.  You can personally disagree or agree with abortions, and that's your choice - which is the point.  What anti-choice activists are doing is stating that they should be able to dictate that part of human liberty for others.  This is what I fundamentally disagree with.

      Howard Dean will always be my president.

      by 4democracy on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:08:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jrooth, historys mysteries

        I'm not disagreeing with the premise of the diary. But the point of an LTE is to sway people who aren't fully committed to one side or another. I don't see how the language used regarding Down's Syndrome would sway someone toward the position of choice.

        I just think it's written in a way that would offend people. And I'm normally not sensitive about offending people, but I don't see how it's helpful when you're trying to win a debate.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Mon Nov 12, 2012 at 02:20:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  "Defective copy:" I think the point is (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      historys mysteries

      that it's up to the parents themselves to decide whether to call it that and nobody else's business.

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