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View Diary: Texas, secession and Latinos: How we can make this work (345 comments)

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  •  A point that Lincoln made. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kovie, entrelac, mightymouse, pademocrat

    If everyone has the right to secede where does it end?

    For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

    by Anne Elk on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:13:33 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  When a racist authoritarian hypocrite says so (0+ / 0-)

      Didn't you get the memo about how democracy works? It's a political system meant to preserve and protect the prerogatives of racist white rich men.

      You know, FreeDumb!

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 08:20:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did Ireland not have the right to secede (0+ / 0-)

      from the United Kingdom?  Did India not have the right to secede from the British Empire?  Did the Thirteen Colonies not have the right to secede from the British Empire?

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 09:25:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ireland and India were forced to become (0+ / 0-)

        a part of the British Empire and so had the moral if not legal right to secede from it. The colonies were founded by that same empire so their right to secede derived from elsewhere. I see it as the difference between a slave running away from his owner to seek freedom, and an employee quitting and breaking his contract because he believes the employer violated it first.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:22:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And the southern states' seceding (0+ / 0-)

        is more in line with the latter, but with far less legal or moral plausibility since the US didn't really violate any laws or agreements.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:23:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  What laws or agreements had King George's (0+ / 0-)

          government violated?

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:07:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Imposed taxes w/o colonial input (0+ / 0-)

            Being forced to quarter troops sent their to oppress them. Not being allowed to organize politically and militarily. Not having a written constitution, there was room for debate on whether these were illegal or not.

            But basically, the notion that the colonies had no say in what laws or taxes were imposed on them or how they were governed.

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:13:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Anyway, my point was that it's wrong to argue (0+ / 0-)

          that, if you allow secession anywhere, you allow it everywhere.  Because secession is sometimes right.

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:08:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  No. They didn't. (0+ / 0-)

        Rights are rights to the extent they are recognized to be so. In all of those examples, a long and often bitter struggle was waged to establish the right of secession. To the extent that the Civil War determined by force of arms that no right to secede existed in the USA, no right of secession exists. If, however, Texans were prepared to wage a war of independence or struggle through massive civil disobedience to assert such a right, then perhaps the rest of the country might be persuaded to grant Texas such an asserted right. But I doubt whether such an endeavor would gain much support in Texas or any other State. We are, therefore, condemned to remain a fractious national family.

        For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

        by Anne Elk on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 10:42:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did the USSR's suppression of the Hungarian (0+ / 0-)

          revolution and the Prague spring determine that no member of the Warsaw Pact could leave it?

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:25:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Did the British suppression of the Great Mutiny (0+ / 0-)

          establish that India had no right to leave the British Empire?

          The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

          by lysias on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:27:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Rights are only rights when they can be sustained. (0+ / 0-)

            Otherwise they are only assertions.

            For if there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life. - Albert Camus

            by Anne Elk on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 02:31:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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