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View Diary: A scary but enlighting map that gives me hope on second thoughts (130 comments)

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  •  Earlier. (5+ / 0-)

    Herder/farmer clashes.

    The issue is probably older than Catal Huyuk.

    Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

    by Cassandra Waites on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 06:18:50 AM PST

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    •  Farmers made cities possible (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shockwave, NotGeorgeWill

      An interesting thesis traces the North/South divide in the US to Scottish (pastoralist) vs. British (farmers/urbanites) cultural differences imported to the New World and given a local spin.

      We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

      by bmcphail on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 08:56:49 AM PST

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      •  Pretty much created the need for them. (6+ / 0-)

        Farm equipment tends toward things you can't necessarily make yourself. And there's also the need for seasonal labor, eventually.

        So there's maybe a three-tier system of nomadic herders who mainly just see their families and occasionally others of the same ethnicity, then settled farmers who still mainly see people like them but occasionally a trader from elsewhere who looks significantly different, and then eventually urban developments on trade route junctures where a lot of different kinds of people all have a reason to be at the same time.

        And you can still find the 'just my family' mindset around - homeschooling families that also homechurch, so the daughters may never actually leave the house for weeks on end, for instance.

        I know when my family was looking for this house, we found out that the realtors in this rural area will actually point out houses that are out of eyeshot and earshot of neighbors because there are still people looking for that 'just my family' controllable setting even here, where just about everyone is a white Christian related within 6 generations at the most.

        Prayers and best wishes to those in Japan.

        by Cassandra Waites on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 09:28:21 AM PST

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        •  My root point is that until agriculture (0+ / 0-)

          was invented it was impossible to accumulate the surplus resources necessary to support urban dwellers or a highly stratified class system. Them kings and priests gotta eat......Even today hunter-gatherer and pastoral groups tend to have smaller and looser political structures.

          We are the principled ones, remember? We don't get to use the black hats' tricks even when it would benefit us. Political Compass: -6.88, -6.41

          by bmcphail on Sat Nov 17, 2012 at 11:34:58 AM PST

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      •  The North was always more diverse and (0+ / 0-)

        middle class--all those religious minorities (Methodists, Quakers, Puritans) and Germans and small farmers, businesses and traders*).

        The South reproduced the social classes of England. Only worse with the addition of slavery.

        Northerners like the Adams' were lawyers and 'tradesmen' (by definition middle class) while southerners like Washington and Jefferson played at being 'gentlemen' (with delusions of aristocracy). Wide gulf (wide essentialist gap) between 'trade' and 'gentry' at that time.

        Jefferson particularly was wedded to the idea of landholding and agriculture being the ideal. This was the position of English aristocrats, too. And they were impoverished to the extent that they considered land and it's products the source of riches and security rather than moving with the times and buying land in cities or backing trade.

        * I do realize that many of those traders traded in slaves, but they could change to other ... um ... cargo when the slave trade dried up. It didn't form part of their identity in the same way that slavery and the system it supported became the Southern identity. That is what is so tragic. For the South and for us all.

        Help us to save free conscience from the paw Of hireling wolves whose gospel is their maw. ~John Donne

        by ohiolibrarian on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 07:16:47 PM PST

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