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View Diary: Why I'm Rejecting Rabbi Yoffie's Call for Progressive Jews to Support Israel's Bombing of Gaza (328 comments)

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  •  Sigh. (30+ / 0-)

    For those bringing up their "offense" at this diarist's comments on the "psychological demons" or whatever, please note that it's the point at the core of Yoffie's friggin' argument here:

    Israel came into being so that Jewish children would never again have to huddle together in fear, terrorized by enemies of the Jewish people, while their parents stood by helplessly. Helping those children is a progressive cause. And doing nothing for them undermines the sovereignty of the Jewish state and strikes a fatal blow at the very raison d'etre of Zionism.
    If you want to argue about whether this has crap to do with the holocaust or other historical pain, please note that that's coming from exactly the author this diary is responding to. Yoffie is playing off of it to try to use past pain as a justification here. That's the damn point. That's the argument Yoffie is using.

    And I think the diarist should criticize that.

    •  Your comment made me laugh, because (17+ / 0-)

      of how obvious your point is, a point those who would like to critique this refuse to acknowledge.

      In other words, thank you.

      I'm "THE" Troubadour," and not "Troubadour" without the article. We're different people here at DK :)

      by David Harris Gershon on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:15:04 PM PST

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      •  I am sure (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1, Spit

        you know full well that Israel's creation was not merely a response to the Holocaust. And you likely are knowledgeable enough to know that this falsehood is one that is spread by anti-Zionists and antisemites (at least those that are not full-blown holocaust deniers). Yoffie did not explicitly state that Israel was created because of the Holocaust, as I am sure that he too knows his Zionist history (if, however, that was his intent then shame on him). My bet is that he also is well aware that this notion is one that is a fav among many Israel haters around the world .  And I very much doubt he agrees with the notion that Israel's actions in Gaza are primarily the work of the demons Jews have from the Holocaust.

        •  You are correct about Israel's formation. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stargaze, JesseCW, corvo, The Troubadour, poco

          However, if this quote is accurate (and it is):

          Israel came into being so that Jewish children would never again have to huddle together in fear, terrorized by enemies of the Jewish people, while their parents stood by helplessly
          then I'm not sure how you can conclude that "Yoffie did not explicitly state that Israel was created because of the Holocaust..."

          In fact, the article is behind a pay wall so I can't see the whole thing - but THAT ONE SENTENCE is what is up as the teaser.  In other words, it's seen by the author and the editors as the central thesis of the whole article.

          •  My guess is that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            if Yoffie meant to refer only to the holocaust, he would have said it explicitly. It would have been very easy to do so (as the diarist demonstrates, btw, with his outrageous assertion that holocaust demons are at work here).

            But inasmuch as this is such a well known falsehood, I wouldn't assume that someone so well versed in Zionist history meant to say it.

        •  At the time Israel was created, colonies still e (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, lysias, blue earth

          existed. For a lot of people in the dominant, Western culture considered, "colonization" would have been considered a viable approach to appropriate problems.

          My reaction to the land grabs and the expansion of settlements is to feel the colonialism is continuing.

          I want my USA taxmoney to stop having any part in enabling this destruction and killing and thievery.

          The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

          by stargaze on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:40:05 PM PST

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        •  Wow, I didn't know the Holocaust happened in (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          livosh1, hester

          the 1800's... Because that's when the Zionist movement started...

          But hey we learn something new everyday (/snark)

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:48:32 PM PST

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        •  You're completely correct (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          but I think that Yoffie himself -- and others in this thread -- make clear that these are sets of response that do underlie at least some measure of some people's support for various actions or overall opinions here. The quote above is his argument. I personally find it to be terribly manipulative, in no small part because traumas -- the Holocaust and others -- do still play into many, many of many folks' underlying fears and feelings.

          And well they should, frankly, if we're aware of them and aware that they have to be taken as a piece of context and historical knowledge, but without providing justification in themselves for any particular action. That's our shared experience, for good or ill, and we should be aware IMO of how it plays into people's feelings. Everybody's? No, but they are collective experience, and they are deep trauma.

          Are those feelings the fundamental justification for Israel's existence? No, they are not, and they can't be.

          Are those feelings real feelings that some seem to constantly try to manipulate to stoke fears and feelings beyond the current, real life situation? Yes, to me, that is going on here. And shame on Yoffie for playing into it. It helps nobody.

          •  Respectfully, I think you are moving goalposts (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            The diarist specifically pointed to Yoffie's position as one caused by psychological demons from the Holocaust. But the sentence at issue talks about how Israel came into being, and it doesn't mention "Holocaust." The diarist is either being very sloppy, or (more likely) shamefully manipulative.

    •  Yep... (6+ / 0-)

      as evident here, and in heathlander's diary from earlier today, outrage doesn't feast on reading comprehension.

      Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

      by angry marmot on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 01:16:30 PM PST

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