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View Diary: Why I'm Rejecting Rabbi Yoffie's Call for Progressive Jews to Support Israel's Bombing of Gaza (328 comments)

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  •  Whereas chanting ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    "...we want to kill in the name of God. God is Great" while stockpiling thousands of missiles, some of which are made in Iran and can reach Tel Aviv, whose only purpose is to reign terror on populated areas helps alleviate the conflict.

    That study reminds me of the old one liner:
    "I'm not paranoid.  It's just that everyone's out to get me"

    I'd like to see some research into the Palestinian mentality of throwing pebbles at a lion time after time with the same unfortunate result, when all they have to do is come to terms with the Jewish state's legitimacy.

    Evolution IS Intelligent Design!

    by msirt on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 02:16:20 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Multiple things can be true (9+ / 0-)

      at the same time.

      Dehumanization begets dehumanization begets more dehumanization, and the whole damn thing spirals down, all dehumanized together.

      No, I don't have great answers, but the people stoking shit on both ends are not helping to find a peaceful way. Continuing to up the ante violence only makes for eventual peace if you are willing to flat out exterminate your enemies. That's true all around.

    •  Yes. "Israel" is a lion, without moral (10+ / 0-)

      culpability or any expectation of ethical restraint.

      Those who "antagonize" a militarist state are responsible when that state kills their kids.

      Every day, I lose a little bit more faith in the idea that people are essentially good.

      "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

      by JesseCW on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:16:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And then I read justifications for shelling (0+ / 0-)

        civilian areas on and their leaders screams for martyrdom and that faith disappears almost completely.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 03:32:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There will be extremists. (10+ / 0-)

          They are publicly empowered by rage. Rage is fed by dead children.

          That's true on both sides.

          How do we get out of that loop? I have no idea.

          Something I learned early in my interpersonal life was this:

          Just because a given response is justified, that does not make it helpful or truly on point to larger goals.

          And I think that until that becomes a guiding realization here more broadly, only those with the least interest in finding solutions will be empowered.

          •  You know Spit... I have been reading your stuff (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Spit, PeterHug, Tonedevil

            and so far, I have to say that I am seeing it as a fair attempt to actually talk with people. Just wanted to let you know.

            As for this comment... I generally agree. I find that I am getting a bit pissed off at what seems to me (in other words my opinion) to be support for a murderous bunch of fascist thugs (Hamas) and the self righteous whining by said supporters.

            I don't know how we get out of that loop either.... I do know that my friends and their families have been under fire for quite some time and honestly I am at a very frustrated place.

            But in a rational place - I agree with your comment.

            BTW... on your user handle.... Is that from the character in the book Less Than Zero? Just curious.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:01:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ha! (10+ / 0-)

              No, nothing nearly that intelligent. It was a silly faux-"redneck" nickname that came out of my drinking very cheap beer at a bar one night, having my drawl come out, and talking about where I grew up. I drunkenly dubbed others "weasel" and "runt," so it wasn't, you know, literary. :D

              Thank you for the comment. I think these conversations are so hard all around. The stakes are so high for those most directly involved, and the layers of it all build until it gets hard to even see folks' real perspectives.

              I know I can be just as guilty of that as anybody. It takes really gritting teeth, I think, and trying to see others' points, or at least their humanity, even through the occasional offense. Work in progress on my part.

              For what it's worth, I think a lot of folks here -- you and others, plenty of folks I disagree with on some points, so on -- are mostly, with very, very few exceptions on either side, arguing from real concern for real people, from actually wanting different, and from a very complicated set of feelings and situations. I think most of us really want this all to find a way, and so much of the vehemence comes from it being deeply important and personal.

              There's a set of arguments where I see your point on some defenses of Hamas. Sides harden to strangeness sometimes here, too. I worry about the ways in which entrenched stuff here in the US winds up playing into both anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic arguments, in various twisty ways. I don't assume that people start from there, usually, but some of the hardening takes things there, sometimes; I think I actually see less of that here on this blog than I see among some folks I know in real life. Still, I see that as really pretty uncommon, in where people are arguing from in general, even if folks can occasionally step on a stereotype or two.

              I wish I knew how to get out of the loop. I fear that current actions will only harden both sides, and I say that as more of a practical matter than a moral one. I think, honestly, that a lot of real people's rage all over this is plenty well justified, I just don't think that can be the guiding force in it if anybody actually wants to get anywhere different.

              Sometimes I wish that we could all say, yes, you are all right to be damned angry, let's sideline these people just endlessly feeding it and figure out what to do next, okay? But the world is never that simple, of course.

              •  Very good comment (6+ / 0-)

                I know there are people on here that bring out my worst side and frankly push my buttons because they represent that dark side of prejudice and hate against Jewish people and use this conflict to spread their hatred.

                At the same time I see (with great dismay) there are those from my side that do the same thing just turned around and directed at Arabs and Muslims. It disgusts me. Yesterday we had one of those guys that simply polluted the discussion.

                AND I see that there are people that I strongly disagree with but who are good people with good intentions and solid commentary that should be discussed. And I agree with your last paragraph completely. But then again this is an open forum and I don't get to make those decisions.

                There has to be a way to break to the cycle of violence, but who is willing to first. Honestly, I am not. I feel that asking for Permanent Peace is NOT a bad thing and I think those that deny that are the ones that need to change.

                And hence we are stuck in the loop again.

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:34:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And I genuinely understand it. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, corvo, Larsstephens, CwV

                  I have friends in Israel who have been very personally hit, too. I also was lucky enough to befriend a young woman who had come here from would-be Palestine, a long time ago, who was really rather traditionally Muslim, and with whom I had amazingly productive discussions about her growing up, about feminism and Islam, about current states of extremism all around, about her fears as a child.

                  It's a deep pain, all of it, and I can only wish I knew how to get to something that would stop it from worsening. I don't, I just do think that the relationship of the hardest lines on both ends, to each other -- that feeds the whole loop, while the everyday people live in fear and suffering.

                  I have seen a growing antisemitism among some of my lefty friends here -- something I genuinely don't say lightly, at all -- and I despair at it hugely, because simultaneously, I have watched shit like the tone-deaf-as-hell (to put it kindly) anti-"Jihad" ads taken out on city buses feed the loop, too.

                  I don't know where we go from here.

                  •  Sigh... Thank you for acknowledging that side (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Spit, Larsstephens, CwV

                    of the argument when you say this:

                    I have seen a growing antisemitism among some of my lefty friends here -- something I genuinely don't say lightly, at all -- and I despair at it hugely,
                    and I totally despair at the Islamophobia and bigotry against Arabs and Muslims that comes from my side. It disgusts me to see fellow Jews acting just like those they say hate us.

                    I agree with this as well:

                    It's a deep pain, all of it, and I can only wish I knew how to get to something that would stop it from worsening. I don't, I just do think that the relationship of the hardest lines on both ends, to each other -- that feeds the whole loop, while the everyday people live in fear and suffering.
                    Well, I guess it starts with discussions like this that can sometimes lead to mutual trust and from that can grow negotiations that can withstand the hard liners on both sides.

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 04:47:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  On the acknowledging things (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      volleyboy1, corvo, Larsstephens, CwV

                      Seriously, I wish some of the lefty left -- understand, I'm a socialist with radical leftist thought in my blood, so I'm not using that as an epithet -- would really think harder and listen harder, because yes, I do see it, with the veil frankly kind of ever-thinning in some places and on some topics.

                      I mean -- I could tell some local stories... just, wow. "Tone deaf" is kind.

                      This is one of those discussions where I usually wind up pissed off at nearly everybody. I value people trying to listen to each other and think, even if conclusions aren't always the same. And that's getting harder and harder to find, sadly, though I think that it's still about the extreme points of view being loud more than common.

                •  And there were are. The poor agrieved Volley (0+ / 0-)

                  isn't responsible for his behavior - it's those evil evil antisemites who push his buttons and make him do bad things.

                  "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                  by JesseCW on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 11:20:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  He just slipped his "reasonable" act on. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                callmecassandra

                Don't take it too seriously.  There's nothing genuine about it.

                "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

                by JesseCW on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 11:18:49 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Justifications for shelling civilian areas? (0+ / 0-)

          If you stop writing them, you won't have to read them nearly as often.

          "the Agency continues to verify the non-diversion of declared material at these facilities and LOFs."

          by JesseCW on Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 11:15:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The Likud charter (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, DarkLadyNyara

      does not recognize a Palestinian state, instead referring to the land between the sea and the Jordan River as belonging to Israel.

      Beyond that, while Israeli political parties may disagree on rhetoric, both left and right on the Israeli political spectrum of parties have consistently pushed settlement in the occupied territories and the continued blockade of Gaza.

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